Pale Moon 27.8 released - gHacks Tech News

Pale Moon 27.8 released

The developers of Pale Moon released two new versions of the browser in the past couple of days. Pale Moon 27.8.0 was released on March 2, 2018 and the follow-up release Pale Moon 27.8.1 on March 6, 2018.

Pale Moon users who want to update to the newest version may do so from within the application. A click on the Pale Moon button and the selection of Help > About Pale Moon displays the current version of the browser in a new window. A click on "check for updates" runs an update check.

The new version of Pale Moon is also available on the official project website. It can be installed over the old version.

Pale Moon 27.8

pale moon 27.8.1

Pale Moon 27.8.0 is listed as a development update with "new and improved features and bugfixes".

The browser includes several new, mostly minor, features. There is the new auto-correction feature for mistyped schemes that corrects ttp://example.com to http://example.com automatically, an Eyedropper option in the AppMenu, and a setting in preferences to toggle the use of Ctrl-Tab to display tab previews.

Another new feature improves emojis on Windows systems that "have relatively poor support" for them, and a new preference that controls the text cursor thickness of Chinese, Japanese and Korean languages (default on).

The new version of the browser fixes several crashes and other issues in the browser, and removed unneeded or unmaintained code as well.

The team updated support for TLS 1.3 by updating the specification to the latest draft in Pale Moon 27.8.0. It disabled support for it again in Pale Moon 27.8.1 a few days later. The NSPR/NSS update in Pale Moon 27.8.0 caused crashes, instability and handshake issues according to the release notes.

The decision was made to back out and this affected the TLS 1.3 implementation. Pale Moon supports an older draft right now that is not current and may cause connectivity issues because of that.

Pale Moon users may enable the implementation in the following way:

  1. Load about:config?filter=security.tls.version.max in the browser's address bar.
  2. Double-click on the preference security.tls.version.max and change its value to 4.

You can undo the change at any time by changing the value to 3 again using the method described above.

Pale Moon users who are interested in the full release notes can read them on the official web page of the project.

Pale Moon 27.8.1

Pale Moon 27.8.1 was released on March 6, 2018. The update disables TLS 1.3 draft support by default and backs out of NSPR/NSS for "causing crashes, general operational instability and handshake issues".

Pale Moon 27.8.2

Pale Moon 27.8.2 is a security  update for the web browser that was released on March 22, 2018.  The release fixes two security issues and includes Defense-in-Depth improvements.

The developers fixed a privacy issue and improved compatibility with the file synchronization and online hosting service Dropbox on top of that.

Now You: What is your main browser right now, and why?

Summary
Pale Moon 27.8 released
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Pale Moon 27.8 released
Description
The developers of Pale Moon released two new versions of the browser in the past couple of days. Pale Moon 27.8.0 was released on March 2, 2018 and the follow-up release Pale Moon 27.8.1 on March 6, 2018.
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Ghacks Technology News
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Comments

  1. Perceived Performance Please said on March 6, 2018 at 12:49 pm

    How does its performance compare with Nightly+WebRender enabled? :D

    1. michal said on March 6, 2018 at 1:30 pm

      Palemoon’s performance is inferior even to stable FF quantum’s. That’s especially visible on pages with lots of multimedia. PM just freezes for a few seconds, while FF is responsive. Pages load faster. I have same extensions on both – just one to be exact: ublock origin.

      Can anyone explain why PM developers resist to rust, multithread approach as in FF (chrome’s is bad in my opinion), quantum?

      I was a strong PM’s advocate, now I think this browser will die. And Basilisk will adopt everything from FF again, except WE, that again I cant understand why they resist.

      And regarding news itself: I stopped checking for PM updates. Partially because of regressions like one with TLS. Main browser – FF naturally.

      1. Jody Thornton said on March 6, 2018 at 2:24 pm

        As for Moon-Matt resisting e10s, here are some of their reasons why:
        https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=17442
        https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=17697&p=129634&hilit=e10s#p129634

        I disagree. I have to say on better, newer hardware, Quantum with mutiprocess enabled mops the floor with Pale Moon.

      2. Appster said on March 6, 2018 at 5:30 pm

        @Jody Thornton: You are right. On decent hardware, e10s would be the way to go. Pale Moon is better on low end hardware. A fair comparison would be Firefox with e10s disabled vs. Pale Moon. This shows the extent of the optimization work they do.

        My reason for not using Quantum are multiple extensions that I need, most notably Roomy Bookmarks Toolbar and Downloads Window. Firefox is way worse without these two, IMHO.

        @Richard F is right by the way. Their development team and support stuff are beyond awful. This should not be the point when we discuss the product itself, though. Yes, they are no the most likeable guys out there, but this has nothing to do with the product itself. The horrible web standard support, however, has.

      3. Kossan Nyx said on March 7, 2018 at 12:08 pm

        Jody,

        I mean what do you expect? That when the Pale Moon developers realize they can’t do a certain task they instantly remove Pale Moon from the web and put the project to rest?

        You can not do certain tasks if you do not have not the abilities to make it possible. Pale Moon is still good enough for lots of people who neither use Twitter or Tumblr or Twitch.

        Someone with zero knowledge like you should be VERY silent. You are even unable to fix browser related bugs or port over the old UI to another code base.

        While the Pale Moon team has shown of having skills like that. You can not know everything if you are not one of the big guys. You have to hire people with that knowledge. How do you expect Moonchild doing that?

        Robbing a bank perhaps? :D

        You sir, are a waste of time.

      4. Jody Thornton said on March 7, 2018 at 12:46 pm

        @Kossan Nyx types:
        You can not do certain tasks if you do not have not the abilities to make it possible. Pale Moon is still good enough for lots of people who neither use Twitter or Tumblr or Twitch.

        ————————————–

        But here’s the problem Nyx; Pale Moon’s website touts their product as a web browser (“Your browser; your way!” is their slogan.) Someone reading that would JUST EXPECT Twitter to work. So when there are problems, you mean to say that “Well we don’t care about those Twits on Twitter” is a good answer? That the stupidest tripe I’ve ever heard in my life, and you’re said some pretty stupid stuff Kossan Nyx.

      5. Appster said on March 7, 2018 at 1:11 pm

        @Kossan Nyx: You should try and avoid intermingling politics with web browsers. There is no indication that I know of, which would indicate that users of certain browsers must have a certain political affiliation. Making that argument hurts your entire point and is somewhat unnecessary, even ridiculous.

        As I said down below… If Mozilla wouldn’t exist, the Pale Moon project wouldn’t either. Mozilla is vital for the Pale Moon project. The PM devs prove it over and over again when they need to rebase once again.

        Furthermore, I must say that Firefox still offers about:config. Chrome offers nothing of that sort. The last line of defense against overreaching data miners is thus still standing in Firefox. Putting it at the same level as Chrome is therefore a bit unfair. It’s certainly heading in that direction, but it is not quite there yet.
        Also, Mozilla’s Gecko engine is the last major engine that stands in the way of total Blink domination. If it goes away, Google will have sole control over web standards. Gecko still prevents this scenario! “Best viewed in Chrome” could otherwise soon become a thing. And yes, Pale Moon will never overtake Firefox’s place, so please don’t count on that tiny project when it comes to put a hindrance in Google’s way.

        I think we should calm down a bit. What do you think?

      6. rickmv said on March 9, 2018 at 10:08 pm

        The replies are very straight and easy to understand. Leave Pale Moon for the ones who knows what a web browser is used for. # minds can just use g00gle.

      7. rickmv said on March 9, 2018 at 10:11 pm

        Did you understand even a little from Dev post? Pale Moon devs. just mops the floor with users like you. Pale Moon is not for you. Leave it for the pros.

      8. Dan said on March 6, 2018 at 6:08 pm

        > Palemoon seems a crab, walking sideways. Essentially, they don’t care about users.

        Or. The kind of user PaleMoon targets are the kind that don’t care if the browser is a bit slower, and instead care more about a product that works as they want it to, with customizations and a good “feeling”.

      9. John Fenderson said on March 7, 2018 at 1:56 am

        @Dan

        I’m not a PM user (I use Waterfox), but I’m very much in that camp. Raw performance is much less important to me than other issues, such as usability. For me, Waterfox is clearly superior to Quantum on that count, so I use Waterfox.

        It probably helps quite a lot that I don’t personally see large performance improvements in Quantum anyway. From the various people that I see reporting huge improvements, it seems clear that they use the browser in a very, very different way than I do. For example, I rarely have more than three or four tabs open at a time, and it doesn’t bother me even a little if a page takes an extra half-second to load.

        I know that I’m not alone at all. Quantum imposes a cost in terms of loss of usability and functionality. That cost may be worth paying for people who see at least an equal gain in other aspects of the browser. I don’t see that gain, and I expect that the people who use PM don’t, either.

        @michal said “Can anyone explain why PM developers resist to rust, multithread approach as in FF”, and as I’m not a PM user, I obviously can’t. But I would speculate that it’s a case of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it,” and people who are looking to escape Quantum probably don’t see the value in adopting rust, etc. In my view, anyway, the value of that stuff isn’t large.

      10. Kossan Nyx said on March 6, 2018 at 7:15 pm

        @Michal

        Web extensions are a pathetic excuse for add-ons, limited and powerless.

        Customization is more worth than speed for a lot of power users, that is what you simple noobs do not get. Enjoy your pathetic Chrome imitation which can’t be soon customized no more when userchrome.css is also killed.

        Me and others prefer instead a couple of thousands of times a perhaps slower, but more feature rich browser.

        Hell, even Vivaldi is better than Firefox and even of the makers are a commercial closed source project, they are much more respectable and open as compared to Mozilla.

        Simple users are not the only ones who have the right to decide which features are seen as good and which ones as bad.

        And for this reason i officially say thanks to Moonchild, Vivaldi team, Brave team and the teams of Qute browser, Qup zilla and Otter browser!

      11. Kossan Nyx said on March 6, 2018 at 8:24 pm

        Well, many users still like features and choice and despise a simple only product which offers no freedom of customization.

        Therefore they use either Vivaldi, Brave, Qupzilla, Qutebrowser or Pale Moon or Otterbrowser for example.

        For you simple users a shiny browser UI which is well designed and simplistic add-ons (webextensions offer a limited way to interact with the UI of the browser) are more then enough, and you are neither willing or able to understand why the other side prefers the feature rich and perhaps a bit slower way. Speed is not everything which is of value.

        I suggest you simple chaps stay with your simple ware like Google Chrome or recently joined by fake Opera and fake Mozilla, while the power/advanced users and general feature and customization enthusiasts stay with their features loaded software.

        It is that simple :D

      12. John Rambo said on March 7, 2018 at 12:39 am

        There is a perfect word in French for you Kossan, it’s “cuistre”. The French themselves rarely understand this superbly fitting word as it combines two notions into one insult of pure accuracy. Not all dictionaries manage to capture the second notion that it contains either, which relates to knowledge.

      13. Klaas Vaak said on March 7, 2018 at 8:07 am

        @John Rambo: cuistre = une personne considérée comme arrogant et ennuyeux. Ça te va comme explication, ou c’est pas tout à fait ça?

      14. rickmv said on March 9, 2018 at 10:20 pm

        Almost forgot how good the old classic UI of FF before Australis was. Fought a while with CTR on ESR. Got on Pale Moon. Great browser! Long live the project! It can even get bring back some glimpses from when first installed FF, ver. 0.8…

      15. Vítor I said on March 6, 2018 at 10:59 pm

        Pale Moon is fast and rock solid stable, period.

      16. James said on March 6, 2018 at 11:09 pm

        Should we ban the world narcissistic too ? Because that’s a mental disorder. How about paranoid ? That’s a mental disorder.

        You have to distinguish between an adjective and a noun. The adjective autistic is useful is that it describes an attitude where the person is oblivious to others around him. You’ll note that actual autism cannot be defined that way, just like actual narcissism and actual paranoia are way deeper than their common language adjective equivalents.

      17. Klaas Vaak said on March 7, 2018 at 7:58 am

        You’re on the wrong forum, this is not an English grammar class.

      18. Klaas Vaak said on March 7, 2018 at 8:00 am

        Spot on. And Moonchild will pull a fast one on Pale Moon users one day, just like he did with FossaMail. When Basilik is fully ready, he will pull the rug from underneath Pale Moon and “justify” it by saying he had to make choices because of limited resources. With FossaMail he just sent us back to Thunderbird.

      19. Kubrick said on March 10, 2018 at 11:40 am

        @michal.
        I disagree fully.
        On my linux computer i have experimented with lots of browsers and only 3 browsers have run with acceptable memory usage,
        1.Palemoon.
        2.google chrome.
        3.qupzilla.

        Palemoon is the lighter of them all and despite people saying chrome is a memory hog,i have found chrome to be very reasonable in memory usage so google are doing something right.

        Worst offenders i have discovered are ff57 and waterfox in particular was using a lot of memory.But configs are different globally so accurate statistics are not possible,
        So palemoon runs fine on my computer so far and have used it for years.

        Always incredible how palemoon posts generate high debate.

  2. Sleeping said on March 6, 2018 at 1:48 pm

    Pale Moon :)

  3. Jody Thornton said on March 6, 2018 at 1:48 pm

    As much as I crap on the development team of this browser, the truth is it still runs well. I would give a slight nod to Quantum on better equipment. If I were running a Quad Core i5 and using Quantum with e10s enabled (and 7 processes), I find performance slightly tops Pale Moon and is more responsive. Now in doing so, I ensure the rendering settings are the same as I have in Pale Moon, in about:config.

    But at home I have an older system, using two Netburst-Style Xeon CPUs and here I find Pale Moon works really well. As soon as I upgrade my system, Pale Moon goes bye bye.

  4. Kubrick said on March 6, 2018 at 2:54 pm

    Every single poster so far obviously does not understand what palemoon is all about.
    First off i see people posting about palemoon needing e10s and rust etc,well if people want those things then simply use firefox.Palemoon is a fork and doesnt need e10s or multi-processing stuff and people who use palemoon are perfectly happy about this.

    Its simple just use firefox if you want e10s and rust and servo.Unless you understand why people use palemoon or any other firefox fork then coming on here and whining that palemoon does not do this or that is completely pointless.
    Just dont use it and moonchild does not make anyone use it but i will say this in years to come palemoon and a few other select browsers will be the only browsers offering proper customisation.

    1. michal said on March 6, 2018 at 3:16 pm

      Hi. The thing is I personally don’t care about e10s, rust, servo. I’m aware of it’s existance. And I can see it makes a very comparable browser (superficial assumption) faster, more responsive, smoth. These are the “features” I care. And I can see that PM does not provide it. Thus I question why PM devs resist bringing the up. I’d like to see a reason like critical security issue, limited user base or whatever supports that resistance.

      And for customisation – PM does offer more here. Personally I can just adjust to new look and limited funcionality in that area. Browser is for me just a tool to.. browse:). I can point out tons of webpages uglier than australis, or less intuitive, user friendly than “cripplied” “uncustomizable” Firefor (typical quotes for ones who don’t want newer FF).

  5. OldFoxRocks :) said on March 6, 2018 at 3:24 pm

    People have forgotten what a REALLY fast browser is, I dare you, please test Firefox 17 ESR, the speed advantage to latest browser is enormous.
    I understand that I have an old machine, the good thing though is it clearly reveals the speed differences between different browser versions, can’t even run any of the latest browsers on it. :D

    https://download.cdn.mozilla.net/pub/firefox/releases/17.0.11esr/

    1. Appster said on March 6, 2018 at 5:25 pm

      This is all nice and well, but… Of what use would Firefox 17 be, if it can’t display any website properly? Not to mention its security status…

      1. Kubrick said on March 10, 2018 at 11:44 am

        @appster.
        If the browser is using the correct ciphers and protocols then security should not be an issue.user agent overrides can always be employed for compatibility issues.

  6. dark said on March 6, 2018 at 5:33 pm

    Apt get Waterfox.

  7. birmingham said on March 6, 2018 at 6:14 pm

    Kubrick is right. Why should Pale Moon jump on the Quantum, e10s, Rust train? To become a Firefox Quantum and finally Chrome twin?
    I used Firefox 58.0.5 recently with less, but almost the same basic extensions. On regular news sites FF 58 has been some milliseconds faster, on most average sites I’ve seen not much difference in performance, on some favourite media sites like flickr/explore I’ve seen even longer load times and hangs in Firefox, so what?
    Why should I care about average performance tweaks in Firefox and milliseconds, relevant for virtual benchmarks perhaps. Also my PC is rather old, so I guess, according to Jody Thornton’s post, it can’t use the full miracle powers of Quantum anyway – and I’m certainly not going to buy an actual gaming machine to enjoy those few Firefox performance tweaks.

    As this seems to be another discussion on “Pale Moon isn’t speed like Quantum, hasn’t WebExtensions and what Firefox, Chrome, Edge,… have”, there are even more things to mention. Pale Moon hasn’t Pocket cloud, Screenshot cloud and in my view badly designed GUI. That’s why I prefer Pale Moon and don’t miss anything from “modern” Firefox.

    Also Richard F is wrong. Pale Moon just cares about their own users, not Firefox fans bashing on alternatives.

    greets, happy Pale Moon user

    1. Appster said on March 6, 2018 at 6:35 pm

      @birmingham:

      A few words about Pale Moon.

      As you may know, the team can’t develop the browser all by itself. They need to use existing Firefox code, and just port their interface forward to newer Firefox versions. Yet they claim to “not need” Mozilla, in spite of the fact that they had to rebase already, namely from Gecko 24 (Pale Moon 26) to Gecko 38 (Pale Moon 27). They are rebasing to Gecko 52 (Basilisk, Pale Moon 28?) as we speak. There you can see that their claims regarding Mozilla are beyond ridiculous. In fact, if Mozilla wouldn’t exist, the Pale Moon project would have died long ago.

      Another folly is their insistence to port the ancient 28 interface over to newer versions. This prevents add-ons which only support Firefox 29+ from running! That is, all add-ons of the past 4 years(!), unless they decided to specifically support Pale Moon. And for what? For that interface? Give me a break, I can achieve the same result with Classic Theme Restorer in less than 10 minutes. Porting the old interface over is time-consuming and totally unnecessary, even cumbersome when it comes to add-ons.

      Lacking WebExtension support doesn’t help, either. All recent add-ons don’t work in Pale Moon, and are not going to work in the future either according to the lead dev.

      Their web standard support always falls severely behind soon after a new Pale Moon version is released, as they want to show the world how “independent” they are, before they are crawling back to Mozilla with their tail between their legs. That happens every two years or so. That kind of bad web standard supportsucks in a major way, in the meantime. Sooner or later they come around and yell how “modern” a new major Pale Moon version is, which in fact is only the work of Mozilla. Please think about that for a moment.

      The Pale Moon lead dev doesn’t give his users any option, whatsoever, to download a DRM module. I get it, I get it… DRM sucks. Yet I still fail to see the reason why Pale Moon can’t come without DRM preinstalled, but still with an option to install it afterwards. Those who don’t want it could still decline. That decision will come back to bite them as streaming services get more popular. The usual excuse of the fans is “Well, I use another browser for that purpose!”… Great excuse, especially when it would be trivial to at least offer a download option, haha.

      Pale Moon has its merits, namely enhanced privacy and a better performance on low end hardware, but these aspects are awful enough to not recommend it, at all.

      Let’s see where the project goes in two years or so, when they can’t fetch new code from Mozilla anymore. Don’t be disappointed when Pale Moon goes full WebExtension then.

      1. Ray said on March 6, 2018 at 11:02 pm

        @Appster – Couldn’t have said it better myself!

  8. jm said on March 6, 2018 at 6:36 pm

    I’ve used PM since the Australis debacle and I’m really
    pleased that some devs are taking user security seriously.
    Using internet nowdays without noscript would be a
    nightmare. Noscript on FF is a mess, thank’s Mozilla!
    Almost every change to FF have degraded the user
    experience and functionality so there’s nothing for me
    anymore. I’ve used FF since it was in beta and liked it.
    It’s sad to see it crippled.

  9. Kubrick said on March 6, 2018 at 6:56 pm

    @appster.
    all of that which you have said is very true no argument here.but it is also common knowledge as well.People want to use the old interface and choice is a very healthy thing in this day and age.

    This is what palemoon about,giving users the old interface and many people have discovered XUL add ons which work just fine and feel web extensions are not needed.

    1. Appster said on March 6, 2018 at 7:24 pm

      @Kubrick:

      WebExtensions are oftentimes the current versions of add-ons that historically used to be legacy add-ons. This is problematic when the add-on needs ruleset updates or support for new HTML features, in order to keep track with the web (HTTPS Everywhere, Decentraleyes, AdBlock Plus, Privacy Badger, NoScript etc.). It doesn’t matter as much with add-ons that change merely the user interface, e.g. full themes or things like Tab Mix Plus. Still, don’t ask me why they insist to port that ancient FF28 interface over all the time, when an incorporated CTR would achieve the exact same result, but without breaking add-on compatibility.

      1. Kossan Nyx said on March 6, 2018 at 7:48 pm

        Moonchild simply is no fan of the bandage solution CTR is – It is a lame method to add features back to a totally crippled simplified browser surface.

        And i am happy that CTR is not used, also not Australis.

        And i would bet everything i own on that one Appster:

        If Moonchild realizes (pretty sure that this is upcoming even if i am a fan of the browser because it is obvious and was seen already – without any expert in ecmascript features they are unable to get the big parts done) that there is no going forward anymore in 1,5-2 years, i – again would bet everything i own that he rather would put the project to rest like it was done also by the Cyberfox dev (health WAS a reason, but Mozilla destroying everything they cared for another big one) instead of offering the same cripple-ware like Firefox is soon becoming once the last remnants of customization are expelled from the product once known as Firefox.

      2. Appster said on March 6, 2018 at 8:59 pm

        @Kossan Nyx:

        Tell me, what is the concrete advantage you get out of the native interface? I mean, you can create that one using CTR – it will look the exact same. And you get more modern versions of legacy add-ons + WebExtensions as well.

        It’s not a “band aid” (I get what you mean, but still.), but the one reasonable solution. Using 4 year old add-ons, especially when they rely on updated rulesets, is just bad – sometimes it’s not even feasible.

        Keep in mind that Australis was just a change of interface, with Firefox staying as powerful as it was before. Quantum was the point where things got nasty.

        And should Moonchild lay the project to rest, well… So be it. What has he achieved in the end? Seems like his way of doing things did not attract a great following. Reasons? See my main post above. Even Vivaldi has more users, and I would bet on that one as well. Pale Moon can’t attract many users with the grand strategic errors hampering it. Its intentions are not bad, but a decent idea does not always pave the way to a decent result.

      3. Kossan Nyx said on March 6, 2018 at 9:12 pm

        Appster:

        Pale Moon is for the crowd who neither want Australis – which is a cheap nonfunctional UI – nor Webextensions or DRM.

        In the end it does not matter how long Pale Moon lasts or how many users it has. But as long as it around it is the perfect fuck you towards Google and their henchman Mozilla.

        Why for fucks sake everything has to be numbers centered or success rated. Hey, i have been thinking you would stand above such simple users tainted mentality. Guess i was so totally wrong in that.

        If features have to be inserted again over add-ons.. this IS a band-aid. One which never should have been necessary if Mozilla would still be fair to both user groups, simple and power users.

        Hell, most of Pale Moon’s users give really a damn about success and numbers. They use it as long as is it around. And many of us are well aware that it is most likely only a temporary solution, as the thing is, there is no rescue web anymore after the new rebase. It is the end, no way of going forward anymore.

        So, lots of people use it as extended ESR before they are forced to switch away to a different browser.

        So no, no to DRM, Australis, CTR or Webextensions. And me and most Pale Moon users are thankful for that.

        You get it finally? :)

        We use Pale Moon exactly for that reasons, not because of numbers, not because of success or fame.

        And we will find a replacement once it is no longer around. Understood?

        You really should abandon that success and numbers mentality. As said, simple users do that. Clever guys like you are one… should stand over that madness!

        Also, a project which may have a limited time but stays true to it’s philosophy is more worthy than a long-lasting one who turns out in the end as total sell-out (Mozilla).

      4. Appster said on March 6, 2018 at 9:34 pm

        @Kossan Nyx:

        > Pale Moon is for the crowd who neither want Australis – which is a cheap nonfunctional UI

        It’s some lines of CSS code as far as the end user is concerned. You could change that to your liking. Firefox 28’s interface (the one Pale Moon uses) was not far more functional than the Firefox 29 interface. Some parts, namely the search bar, were even less functional. Just saying. The legacy extension system was still in place, you just happen to not like the design. Which is fine with me, as I didn’t like either.

        > nor Webextensions

        Realistically, most add-ons are WebExtensions now. What does that mean for Pale Moon? It means that it hardly does have any add-on support at this point. So you are saying that no add-on support is better than WebExtension support? I also find legacy add-ons better, but then… Reality hurts.

        > or DRM.

        So, what do you use for your streaming service? If you don’t use a streaming service, let me tell you that they are here to stay. Again, I don’t see any reason why there shouldn’t be an option to download the DRM module. PM does not have to come with it. Not having this option hampers adoption severely. Before you take issue with the word “adoption” prematurely, please have patience and continue to read.

        > Why for fucks sake everything has to be numbers centered or success rated. Hey, i have been thinking you would stand above such simple users tainted mentality. Guess i was so totally wrong in that. (…) Hell, most of Pale Moon’s users give really a damn about success and numbers. They use it as long as is it around.

        Look, website admins are adapting their websites with the four major engines in mind. Websites get tested against browsers like Chrome, Firefox, Safari, Edge etc. As a minor browser project, you need to use one of those engines if you want your browser to display websites correctly (e.g. Vivaldi uses Blink). Pale Moon is using Gecko (they call it Goanna, but it’s just Gecko) for that reason. Developing a new engine from scratch is so complex and expensive that nobody has done it in ages. Well, you probably still could… You would need a billionaire to fund you and a large team of skilled developers working on it. Otherwise – no chance. Moonchild is building entirely on Mozilla’s effort. If he wants to break away from Mozilla, he would need more manpower/money and yet another thing – visibility. Without major user numbers of your own nobody is going to care for your browser, website admins just won’t support it and test their websites against the browser. Pale Moon still needs to follow Mozilla because it is so small. This is to say, it is riding on the Firefox wave, still. It’s just reality. I play the numbers game because I have to. Website admins only support major engines. It is how it is.

        > If features have to be inserted again over add-ons.. this IS a band-aid. One which never should have been necessary if Mozilla would still be fair to both user groups, simple and power users.

        I don’t think Firefox Australis was unfair in the sense that it really took away control technically. Your dislike is based on design decisions, not on the power of the extension system, as it seems. That only got hampered with Quantum.

        > Also, a project which may have a limited time but stays true to it’s philosophy is more worthy than a long-lasting one who turns out in the end as total sell-out (Mozilla).

        I agree. I think you know that I am philosophically in agreement with them, but I am also a realist. You need a tiny bit of realism when it comes to browsers. Just saying.

        :-)

      5. Kossan Nyx said on March 6, 2018 at 9:51 pm

        And still we shit on numbers :D

        As said, Pale Moon arrived in my opinion in it’s last cycle. 2 more years and then it is over. No safety override anymore, as Moonchild is not willing to base the browser on Quantum sources.

        So, give me one good realistic reason why now changing the concept suddenly if there are at best only 2 more years ahead.

        That 2 years me and many Pale Moon users will be happy with a browser which stays true to version 24’s UI origins.

        And best.. no DRM, no Australis, no Webextensions.

        I already have my replacement browser ready, so i am not unprepared when the Pale Moon ride is over.

        You should see things realistically – and the reality is that Moonchild will never change himself or his project for others, and i am so thankful for that being stubborn. If we hit pages in Pale Moon which do not work, most users have their secondary browser ready.

        Pale Moon is no browser for the mainstream, it is limited to people who do want to avoid as long as possible that degeneration in which we are heading technology wise today.

        So, fuckings to Google tech, Fuckings to Mozilla and fuckings to DRM :D

        Accept Pale Moon for what it is for fucks sake, that is getting tedious. The only mistake make certain users who think Pale Moon is a browser like all the others. We over there at Pale Moon are seriously not in need for Webmasters mercy or users mercy.

        And people over there creating add-ons on their own. So, how about you and all the other “realists” leave us finally alone? :)

        Sounds fair or not? Btw. no offense meant :)

      6. Appster said on March 6, 2018 at 10:20 pm

        @Kossan Nyx:

        > As said, Pale Moon arrived in my opinion in it’s last cycle. 2 more years and then it is over. No safety override anymore, as Moonchild is not willing to base the browser on Quantum sources.

        Probably its last cycle, yes.

        > And best.. no DRM, no Australis, no Webextensions.

        The lack of these things will cause the death of the Pale Moon project. By the way, I don’t take issue with mere design decisions that can be reverted at any time, or with DRM – as long as it doesn’t come bundled with the browser. Moonchild refuses to explore other possibilities as it seems, like creating powerful WebExtension APIs of his own. This could still be a way out, he just chooses to not pursue it.

        > If we hit pages in Pale Moon which do not work, most users have their secondary browser ready.

        Having to use a secondary browser alongside Pale Moon pretty much summarizes the entire problem.

        > Pale Moon is no browser for the mainstream, it is limited to people who do want to avoid as long as possible that degeneration in which we are heading technology wise today.

        If it is not meant for the mainstream, then it will not make any difference, ever. And “mainstream” doesn’t necessarily mean delivering a dumbed down browser, as can be seen with Firefox before v.57 hit. Yet with no add-on support, no support for streaming services, no support for current web standards… Only the most adventurous or idealistic people are going to use Pale Moon. And that lack of adoption causes webmasters to not support/ignore it, causing Moonchild to have to follow Mozilla etc. A vicious cycle, you should realize that Pale Moon being used by idealists only is part of the problem and will be the cause of its demise. Ironically, the people using it are the ones who are going to kill it off.

        > So, fuckings to Google tech, Fuckings to Mozilla and fuckings to DRM :D

        I get what you mean, but don’t think they care or even know Moonchild. The web will continue to go down a dark path, as the ones in charge hate users and user choice, and the ones who could make a difference are to idealistic to attract anyone to their projects.

        > Accept Pale Moon for what it is for fucks sake, that is getting tedious.

        I totally do, I am just pointing out that it has no future for objective reasons. This has nothing to do with me disliking it or not. I think Moonchild is not the nicest guy walking mother earth, but this also has nothing to do with the product itself.

        > The only mistake make certain users who think Pale Moon is a browser like all the others.

        But it still is a browser, right? Not a music player, text editor… or something?

        > We over there at Pale Moon are seriously not in need for Webmasters mercy or users mercy.

        No webmaster support = dead browser, it’s that easy. Moonchild only gets that support via Mozilla’s Gecko engine. If he doesn’t want to follow Mozilla in the mid-term, which is philosophically defensible, but technically insane, his product will die. It’s that easy.

        > And people over there creating add-ons on their own.

        The Pale Moon add-on site is – for lack of a better word – a joke.

        > So, how about you and all the other “realists” leave us finally alone?

        Lacking realism is going to kill it. Look, I have nothing against idealists. The world would be a better place if there were more of them. I just happen to check whether or not my own idealistic ideas match the things that could realistically be achieved. Hence why I don’t give Pale Moon too much credit, although its philosophy is somewhat great.

      7. Kossan Nyx said on March 6, 2018 at 10:46 pm

        @Appster

        Putting my realist expression on for now: If the developer team would be capable of creating own powerful web extension API – they would also be able to manage to solve issues with ECMAscript specifications.

        I am that much of a realist to see that the developers have the ability to fix browser internal bugs, the skill to bring over the old UI to a newer code base (which is no trivial task btw). But:

        Webextension API or ECMAscript – the more heavy stuff – they have no plan how they could do that.

        1) Promises was the reason why re-base one happened.

        2) Classes or how that is called exactly is one of the reasons why the re-base number 2 is happening now.

        Also, no matter with or without Australis, Pale Moon comes to an end sooner or later. As we speak of Quantum, Australis is also no relevant anymore. Especially when the ESR now is running out.

        The only way forward, Australis ui positive or negative emotions cast to the side for now – would be re-basing on Quantum and losing all what is available.

        So, Australis or DRM have no delaying impact on Pale Moon’s possible demise in a couple of years. It is either Quantum or using Chromium code base and pull a Vivaldi!

        So, even with Australis and DRM it would be it’s last cycle or the one before the last cycle – depending how long Pale Moon still will be around once that new re-base starts to malfunction again web compatibility wise.

        Australis does not matter anymore and is seen as outdated and irrelevant by simple users and Mozilla, the same way they think about XUL and the old UI too.

      8. Appster said on March 6, 2018 at 11:00 pm

        @Kossan Nyx: I agree with you when it comes to Australis being also “outdated” now. And you are probably right when it comes to Quantum being the only option going forward. Well, that or putting the project to rest. You choose.

        Thanks for a nice & civil discussion. I am glad that you are understanding my point of view. I was not among the cheering crowd when Quantum arrived, and probably will never join that crowd. Waterfox is my choice for the next month. Then I sadly will have to go Quantum or just stay with Waterfox, should it go Quantum in the near future.

        Enjoy Pale Moon as long as it lasts. Were it not for Waterfox being the better choice for me, all things being equal, I would probably also be on team Pale Moon.

      9. Kossan Nyx said on March 6, 2018 at 11:22 pm

        You still could switch to Vivaldi in the end.

        Think about that: even if Vivaldi is not fully Open Source, it has cool developers who care for users like you and the features you and others like.

        So, partly Open Source and having large control over the browser itself – that is not such a bad deal in my opinion.

        And no problem. As said, you are intelligent, unlike tons of other people who post either in the Firefox sections or bashing Pale Moon for the wrong reasons.

        I just can not stand numbnuts. And i guess that is my right to dislike them ;)

      10. michal said on March 7, 2018 at 1:24 pm

        Hi, why don’t you let people bash PM for what they like it? Being slow on modern computers is quite reasonable.

      11. Jody Thornton said on March 7, 2018 at 12:51 pm

        Well at least he’s civil to you @Appster. Sorry I think he’s out to lunch.

      12. Kossan Nyx said on March 6, 2018 at 9:59 pm

        The point is, you guys are the only ones to blame for your misinterpretation what Pale Moon actually is.

        Again, a time limited project which stays until the end true to it’s philosophy… That is a good thing.

        I guess people should inform themselves before they come up with the typical n00b conclusions which are seen mostly here recently. Again, not directed towards you Appster, i can even understand your point of view.

        But this does not apply to Pale Moon. We had so far 4 cool years since 2013 – i never had a big reason to complain. And is anyway clear that a project being leaded by a couple of persons only has a shorter life span than the rest of the field.

        The only reason why Pale Moon should change is because of users like you and others who demand that it should change it’s way.

        And yet again… we are not depending on your users or webmasters mercy. And no, Webextensions are inferior. You understood me wrong. or i made a writing mistake. So tired already, still sitting at work :P

      13. ihgsupport said on March 7, 2018 at 10:37 pm

        >Realistically, most add-ons are WebExtensions now.

        Really? My MAIN EXTENSION is NOT one of those stupid web extensions! That is the #1 reason FF is used for that extension. PM gives the option for users to use another browser and use that extension.

        It will NEVER be one. Why? ALL the API’s to do it do NOT EXIST on this new hotness. A similar extension has the same issue. They said there will be no update.

        So ff is pinned to v56. and that is where it will stay. Period.

        >> or DRM.

        >So, what do you use for your streaming service? If you don’t use a streaming service,

        Streaming wise, in the vein of streamed video, its pretty low.

        But, first, I ask what does a STS have to do with the browser? ? I admit I do not use the main stream ones. I use an Android box and a Android TV these have applications for Crackle, Tubi, Pluto. All are FREE to use, these are STANDALONE applications on the box/tv. They are ad supported, they are not too annoying with the ads, Easy to hit mute, and ignore. My understanding is that other services have an application to install on said boxes/TV’s, which I routinely ignore.

        I get the rest of my video via OTA, or via my worldwide DVR system. OTA is mostly to get MeTV, AntennaTV etc. which is recorded, and then played back and ads get the FF @ 32x! It is the only way to survive TV. The other shows I watch come ad free.

        >let me tell you that they are here to stay

        They might be here, their current form is a long way from what the future form will be, but still outside the ones I listed unless something else FREE comes along I might use it depending on content and ad load.

        >. Again, I don’t see any reason why there shouldn’t be an option to download the DRM

        I disagree that DRM should be a part of the HTML5 or 6,7,8, or any other future version of the standard. For any thing. This is a slippery slope DRM wise. DRM for vide, next its DRM for web pages. We already have a war going on with ad blockers and anti ad blockers like admiral etc..

        If you want to have a system whereby DRM can be added as some applet or something I am fine with that. It won’t be on my system(s) be it personal, or work. Baked into the browser as part HTML V5. standards, NO.

        >PM does not have to come with it. Not having this option hampers adoption severely. >Before you take issue with the word “adoption” prematurely

        If you need that, yeah its a problem. I don’t need, I don’t want it. One of the things I make sure when I purchase a DVD ROM drive is firmware is available to cleanse it. So it plays any region DVD I would happen to stick in it. I don’t play well with illegitimate rules meant to enrich corporations.

      14. Appster said on March 7, 2018 at 11:12 pm

        @ihgsupport:

        > So ff is pinned to v56. and that is where it will stay. Period.

        I recommend Waterfox in this case. It’s Firefox 56 + newer security patches.

        I actually don’t want to discuss DRM in great depth here. Amazon Prime and Netflix require it, so not having it in the browser sucks. Period. A great many people subscribe to these services nowadays. All I would expect from the Pale Moon dev (if he were reasonable, which he clearly isn’t) would be an option to download the module and use it if I want to. It would be my choice. He doesn’t offer me that choice, which is awful.
        Regarding DRM as a concept… Keep in mind that content owners have every right to protect their art or intellectual property. Why do you think you are entitled to get movies for free? Those things cost money, and are produced in order to make money for the studios. You are paying for something and receive something in return, which is fair. If you find that the price is too high, don’t buy it and move on. DRM is in place so that the trade remains fair for the studios, as well. Nobody wants to become a victim of organized theft. Again: You are not entitled to anything unless you are paying for it. The movies normally aren’t for free, pal.

        I am not saying you are a pirate, but I suspect that many people opposing DRM are. It doesn’t come as a surprise that the guys breaking copy protection and distributing the stolen content across the web for free, thus hurting fair trade, are the most vocal ones when it comes to the fight against DRM.

      15. ihgsupport said on March 8, 2018 at 5:39 am

        >I recommend Waterfox in this case. It’s Firefox 56 + newer security patches.

        I am not interested or asking about a recommendation on a browser. I have no intention on changing what I use. 99% of what I use daily is FF 10.3. The only sites which I don’t use it on is ones where SSL no longer works, or sites that insist using excessive new hotness CSS, HTML, ECMAScript etc… That stuff annoys the crap out me.

        If the browser no longer supports the #1 extension I use then its of no use to me.

        Much of this new hotness is driven by one company much like another company did with all the “Works best with….” I’ll let you fill in who I am referring to. Hint, I limit how much scroogling I get, and I use only Linux.

        >I actually don’t want to discuss DRM in great depth here. Amazon Prime and Netflix require > it, so not having it in the browser sucks. Period

        What does this have to do with the browser???? The things you are referring to are applications that stand alone.

        >The movies normally aren’t for free, pal.

        Lets see I watched Jade, and about 30-40 other movies for $0 via Tubi, Crackle and Pluto. Same with SPACE:1999. These are great ways to replace TCM since I kicked DBS out.

        My cost for the media I watch is $0/month versus $150/month for hundreds of channels I do not watch or want, ie: ESPN, RSN’s. I also watch so much stuff from BBC, ITV, 4, and ABC (NOT THAT ONE!), 7 its pathetic. Why because 90% of the US stuff is just garbage!

        >I am not saying you are a pirate,

        ARRGH matey! The skull and cross bones flies here! DRM can go bite it.

        >but I suspect that many people opposing DRM are. It doesn’t come as a surprise that the >guys breaking copy protection and distributing the stolen content across the web for free,

        I am against DRM, period. If I purchase a DVD or BR then I have the right to do what ever I choose with that content. If that means I image it to my array for later playback and put the DVD in my cabinets . Arbitrary limits on a LEGALLY purchased DVD ie: Region Code is just pure BS.

        >hurting fair trade, are the most vocal ones when it comes to the fight against DRM.

        Fair trade…hahhahaahhahhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, puhlease liberal snowflake found!

        If I purchase a DVD, and I got SEVERAL HUNDRED of them, if I chose to take it and turn it into a media file, like MKV, or even an ISO, that is MY CHOICE to do so! I will do so to put it on my laptop to play it later, or if I want to share it too!

        You needn’t respond to my views in re DRM, we will not agree!

      16. Appster said on March 8, 2018 at 11:33 am

        @ihgsupport:

        > I am not interested or asking about a recommendation on a browser.

        So you prefer to use outdated versions. Whatever.

        > I have no intention on changing what I use. 99% of what I use daily is FF 10.3.

        As far as I know, there never even was a Firefox 10.3. Anyway, Firefox 10.0 wouldn’t work on most sites today. Even Pale Moon sometimes has problems already, and they are using Gecko 38.

        > The only sites which I don’t use it on is ones where SSL no longer works, or sites that insist using excessive new hotness CSS, HTML, ECMAScript etc… That stuff annoys the crap out me.

        NoScript or uMatrix help to block unnecessary stuff. You sound like Lynx would be your browser of choice, haha.

        > Hint, I limit how much scroogling I get, and I use only Linux.

        Okay, this somewhat contradicts what you have said earlier on:

        > I use an Android box and a Android TV these have applications for Crackle, Tubi, Pluto. All are FREE to use, these are STANDALONE applications on the box/tv.

        Android is a Google creation. So there seems to be enough “Scroogle” in your life, still. And please, grow up. There is no need to make a laughing stock out of company names. Me criticizing Mozilla is still no reason for me to call them “Mozzirella”.

        > What does this have to do with the browser???? The things you are referring to are applications that stand alone.

        But you realize that browsers with DRM can usually display that content, don’t you? When you talk of “standalone versions”, this would just mean that you are outsourcing the DRM module to another app on your PC. Having DRM in the browser or the same module in another program installed on your PC… It makes no difference at all, pal.

        > My cost for the media I watch is $0/month

        I somehow knew.

        > ARRGH matey! The skull and cross bones flies here! DRM can go bite it.

        DRM is in existence because of people like you. People who think that they are entitled to get products with a price tag for free. Disgusting. If you distribute your copied media, it would be organized theft. Just saying. Let’s hope that you are not doing that.

        > I am against DRM, period. If I purchase a DVD or BR then I have the right to do what ever I choose with that content. If that means I image it to my array for later playback and put the DVD in my cabinets . Arbitrary limits on a LEGALLY purchased DVD ie: Region Code is just pure BS.

        In the country I come from you are allowed to create a private copy of physical media for your own usage. You are forbidden to distribute that copy further.
        By the way, people who are whining about region codes are those who have bought a standard Blu ray or DVD player that makes use of them. Not my problem. Inform yourself before buying such a device. Moreover, the movie industry has dropped region code requirements for all UHD Blu rays, anyway.

        > Fair trade…hahhahaahhahhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, puhlease liberal snowflake found!

        Going ad hominem at me sure makes sense, you fool. You pay a few dollars for a disk and you can watch it any day you like, you can even create a private copy out of it (at least in the country I come from). Seems fair to me. Copying them and distributing them is not, as you are not the owner of the intellectual property. It’s planned, organized theft should you do that.

        > If I purchase a DVD, and I got SEVERAL HUNDRED of them, if I chose to take it and turn it into a media file, like MKV, or even an ISO, that is MY CHOICE to do so!

        I didn’t deny that, and the movie industry doesn’t give a damn as long as you don’t distribute it.

        > I will do so to put it on my laptop to play it later, or if I want to share it too!

        See, that’s the problem. You are not the owner of the intellectual property. If you hurt the studios by distributing films for free that would normally come with a price tag, this is criminal – and rightfully so. There is a difference between intellectual and physical property, my friend. Let’s say you own a car, then you can share it with a few others for free. It won’t hurt anybody, as you can’t share it with millions or even billions of people. But if you copy a movie and upload it to your site, it could be watched and downloaded by an indefinite number of people for free. If you are not the owner of the intellectual property, this is a problem. Comparing intellectual property with physical property thus is incorrect and misleading. Again, you are certainly entitled to a private copy, but you are definitely not entitled to share it with millions of people. This would just be theft, plain and simple.

        > You needn’t respond to my views in re DRM, we will not agree!

        Sure, we won’t agree. I am of the opinion that if someone trades with you, he or she is entitled to a compensation. If you are unwilling to compensate the owner of the intellectual property, we are delving into the criminal sphere. DRM is in place in order to stop criminal sharing services and the false sense of entitlement that created them.

      17. birmingham said on March 8, 2018 at 3:50 pm

        @ Appster

        > I actually don’t want to discuss DRM in great depth here. Amazon Prime and Netflix require it, so not having it in the browser sucks. Period. A great many people subscribe to these services nowadays.

        That’s one of your problems. You only do the trump here for DRM in Pale Moon, without saying it’s some kind of media industry control software (“black box”), that is not open source, in conflict, if integrated into open source software, that it is about licences and money, that it checks for more than movies on Netflix, but also other media files like ebooks, and nobody can really know what this spyware is doing on your computer.
        Mozilla reportedly had to suffer pains to implement it, but they jumped on it to prevent losing more users. And they even created a special “sandbox” for the “module” within Firefox, to reduce breaking privacy “as much as possible”. – So it seems DRM requires more work to the browser than a usual “add-on to download option”.
        https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/05/driven-by-necessity-mozilla-to-enable-html5-drm-in-firefox/

        I personally have reduced my media consumption to about nothing over the years, don’t even watch TV anymore. That’s why I don’t need DRM in Pale Moon and sometimes used the official Mozilla EME-free version of Firefox. Other Pale Moon users of course seem to use Netflix and other offers. From visiting their forum in the past I’ve seen some posts about media platforms not playing this or that – the usual problems with codecs, etc. From the topic titles I haven’t seen much about missing DRM. (Today there is one.)

        So it’s more clear now that you act here, or virtually speak in the name of a more imaginary browsing media consumer, who can use 5 other DRM browsers, but suffers hard, if he can’t use it in a browser he wouldn’t use anyway.
        That was confusing. I am an autist.

        So “let me tell you something” about mimicking the “users needs”. I know what I need and it’s not a media industry browser with spying controls for what I watch, read or listen to.
        You should be more clear and open about what you write. Something like: Users must be more controlled by media business with DRM. Big browsers do it, alternatives still “resist” – for stupid ideals like privacy, independence, etc… so even in simple release news they have to be badmouthed into the ground.
        That’s just 2 sentences, nobody would have confused you with a serious user and you would have saved a lot of time.

      18. Appster said on March 8, 2018 at 4:30 pm

        @birmingham:

        > You only do the trump here for DRM in Pale Moon, without saying it’s some kind of media industry control software (“black box”), that is not open source, in conflict, if integrated into open source software, that it is about licences and money, that it checks for more than movies on Netflix, but also other media files like ebooks, and nobody can really know what this spyware is doing on your computer.

        Again, there should be a download option, and even if it is a black box, I would like to at least have the option to download it. There is no need for it to come bundled with the browser. Why are you even arguing with me over that? It would be my choice, in the end. Some add-ons aren’t open source either, by the way. Most notably Ghostery, owned by Cliqz, which is in turn owned by Hubert Burda Media KG and… Mozilla.

        > Mozilla reportedly had to suffer pains to implement it, but they jumped on it to prevent losing more users. And they even created a special “sandbox” for the “module” within Firefox, to reduce breaking privacy “as much as possible”. – So it seems DRM requires more work to the browser than a usual “add-on to download option”.

        My dear birmingham, in fact DRM was introduced in Firefox 38.0, namely the exact same Gecko version Pale Moon 27 is based off. They could have just kept the already developed environment, except for making the DRM module a download instead of bundling it with the browser. Waterfox has such a download option, for example. Sure, it was impossible to do. LOL.

        > So it’s more clear now that you act here, or virtually speak in the name of a more imaginary browsing media consumer, who can use 5 other DRM browsers, but suffers hard, if he can’t use it in a browser he wouldn’t use anyway.

        And you wonder why even Vivaldi has more users than Pale Moon? No comment. Introducing a downloadable DRM module is not that hard, and would at least present a choice.

        > That was confusing. I am an autist.

        I don’t know. At least you are someone who doesn’t even know that Pale Moon is based on Gecko 38, and for that version there was already a DRM option available. You should inform yourself before writing anything. Embarrassing.

        > I know what I need and it’s not a media industry browser with spying controls for what I watch, read or listen to.

        Millions of people who subscribe to Amazon Prime and Netflix disagree, my dear birmingham. Those will never use Pale Moon, as it doesn’t work for them. Hence, the browser will never achieve its other goals, as this is hampering adoption. So you want Pale Moon to stay small and unimportant? OK.

        > Something like: Users must be more controlled by media business with DRM. Big browsers do it, alternatives still “resist” – for stupid ideals like privacy, independence, etc… so even in simple release news they have to be badmouthed into the ground.
        That’s just 2 sentences, nobody would have confused you with a serious user and you would have saved a lot of time.

        Do you actually believe the utter bullshit you are writing? I was extremely vocal about dangers to privacy, most notably during the Cliqz experiment. Everybody reading this blog knows that. I am just pointing out that streaming services are expanding in today’s world, and that the lacking (optional) support in Pale Moon will come back to bite it. I don’t support DRM if it can be avoided, but since people like @ihgsupport shit on property rights of others, I am not in the least surprised that it exists.

      19. John Fenderson said on March 8, 2018 at 9:52 pm

        @Appster: “I am not saying you are a pirate, but I suspect that many people opposing DRM are.”

        But most aren’t. There are quite a lot of legitimate objections to DRM generally that have nothing whatsoever to do with piracy or getting anything “for free”. There are even more legitimate objections to the terrible and extremely deceptive form of it that is the EME that was forced into HTML5 by three megacorporations.

      20. Jody Thornton said on March 9, 2018 at 1:16 am

        @John: What is the major objection to DRM in your mind? I’d just be curious to hear it out.
        :)

      21. John Fenderson said on March 9, 2018 at 1:39 am

        There’s many more than one, but one of the most common is that DRM very often prevents legitimate use of the media that is locked up.

  10. Anonymous said on March 6, 2018 at 8:42 pm

    Keeping the v.27.7.2 until a new release, v.27.8 is buggy.

    1. Kossan Nyx said on March 6, 2018 at 8:58 pm

      27.8.1 was released today.

      As far as i know this one fixed the crash issues which have been around because of a not successful implementation of TLS 1.3 – TLS 1.3 was backed out and removed, so crashes should be gone by now.

      Not really sure what will happen to the TLS 1.3 implementation. Guess it will arrive in UXP as that seem to be too complex for getting implemented/fixed by the Pale Moon team and UXP will already have that out of the box.

      1. Anonymous said on March 6, 2018 at 9:16 pm

        Thanks for the info.

  11. Luciano said on March 6, 2018 at 9:00 pm

    I think some people from here are crazy or just Mozilla propagandist.
    Pale Mooon is faster than Firefox and anybody can check this.

    1. Luciano said on March 7, 2018 at 1:18 pm

      Ha-ha! Another Mozilla’s propagandist!
      Well , I’m not a technical person in this domain but I speak like a former long term Firefox user. Firefox became over time a big slow bullshit ( Australis, Quantum..bla-bla..etc) and finally no possibility to use addons. I see the speed difference on my PC and that’s
      enough. You can download addons and themes adapted for PM from the PM site and not only. Many “people” said many times that PM will be dead, but suprise, is not and is better release after release.

      1. Appster said on March 7, 2018 at 1:35 pm

        @Luciano:

        > no possibility to use addons.

        Wrong. You may not like WebExtensions, but this is just not true. Still, Firefox realistically has far more add-on support than Pale Moon will ever have and the Pale Moon add-on site…

        > You can download addons and themes adapted for PM from the PM site and not only.

        …is a joke.

        > Many “people” said many times that PM will be dead, but suprise, is not and is better release after release.

        Except that Firefox kept the technologies that Pale Moon also supports in the meantime. This is no longer true, NPAPI plug-ins (except Flash) are no longer supported, and neither are legacy add-ons. Reimplementing that support is nigh impossible due to the major rewrite Firefox is currently undergoing. There is nowhere to run anymore. No more rebases on Moonchild’s part.
        No idea why you put the word people in quotation marks, maybe some other kind of fanaticism that I have not yet discovered. I don’t know, and don’t want to know.

        Oh and by the way, most (95%+) of Pale Moon’s code was written by Mozilla, whether you like that fact or not.

      2. Appster said on March 8, 2018 at 10:53 am

        @Luciano:

        Your point being? Even if Firefox had just 1% market share, this would still be vastly more than Pale Moon’s 0.04%…

        The users Firefox lost went to Chrome, not to the tiny Pale Moon project.

      3. Luciano said on March 9, 2018 at 2:09 pm

        @Appster

        PM was always at a low percent but Firefox not, and Firefox is falling from a long time.
        But for me percents does not matter, just how browser works.

      4. Kubrick said on March 11, 2018 at 1:33 pm

        @appster.
        Palemoon is not about gaining high numbers its about having alternatives.Large number of chrome developers actually came over from mozilla.
        Chrome will never be overtaken that is a pretty certain fact,but alternatives MUST be supplied or we will end up with a google utopian web.

      5. John Fenderson said on March 8, 2018 at 9:55 pm

        @Appster: ” There is nowhere to run anymore.”

        That’s not really true. We still have the older versions of FF and the forks.

      6. Daniel said on March 9, 2018 at 12:32 pm

        I agree with that.

  12. John Bayley said on March 6, 2018 at 11:05 pm

    I can’t understand why some people here continue to complain about the ‘bad attitude’ of the Palemoon team.
    The browser is free and nobody forces anyone to use it. There are only a small handful of developers there that keep the project going for those such as myself, who prefer customisation and the old extension system to Google Chrome’s speed and dumbing down.
    If you actually spend some time on the PM forums and read what some users come up with, you have to in fact admire the patience of the likes of Marcus (Moonchild).
    And I don’t agree that PM has ‘bad support’ for web standards. For me, it works on 99% of sites I visit, and in fact there are still some sites today which only work with IE. I don’t really see any reason for using Quantum because it has little to no benefit over Chrome these days.

    1. Kossan Nyx said on March 7, 2018 at 8:09 am

      The main reason why there is partly so much hate from some of the Firefox crowd… They just can’t stand the fact that someone actually decides to be different.

      Today our world is like that:

      Be mainstream or be one of no worth at all!

      XUL, Real Mozilla’s respected creation was empowering users

      Google’s add-on technology and minimalism and simplicity is limiting users actually

      And today.. the very sad thing is the following change of attitude/opinion:

      That Restriction is basically advancement!

    2. Jody Thornton said on March 7, 2018 at 11:58 am

      @John and @Kossan

      I am using Pale Moon to type this so I don’t hate the product. But the reason I crap on the team is because they act inexcusably towards their user base.

      I believe in a healthy customer service relationship, and I also initially believed that the Pale Moon community encouraged people to speak their mind – er, that is until you do. God forbid you give an opinion they don’t like, they run you out of town. You’re made to feel like the town leper.

      I watched people get banned, and so I defended them (because a lot of those banned forum users came up with good ideas). And then I got banned. We’ve linked countless examples of their non-cooperative behaviour, and what’s worse, many of the users are blindly fanboyish to Moonchild.

      And @John, read the PM forum for awhile and you’ll realize that Marcus (er, I mean Moonchild) is far from patient and is actually pretty arrogant towards user. Some of the crap you suggest he puts up with, were actually legitimate concerns.

      1. Kossan Nyx said on March 7, 2018 at 12:40 pm

        @Jody Thornton

        You and others have not suggested, you demanded.

        And for your constant begging and annoying behavior you got the boot. Status Quo is that the developer decides. And the user either accepts or leaves.

        And – If the user does not agree to that, why do they still insist on using a product then which is not bowing down to their demands?

      2. Jody Thornton said on March 7, 2018 at 12:53 pm

        So @Kossan Nyx: I go buy a toaster, and I want to write to the manufacturer of the toaster to see if they could change a feature, I should be told to return my toaster and go fly a kite?

        It sounds like your answer is “yes”. So OK then you are a fool – just checking!

      3. Jody Thornton said on March 8, 2018 at 1:05 pm

        LOL …. I loved my little playwright script ….lol. Anyhoo, regarding this linked post somebody mentioned it here using the phrase “more flies with honey”. Definitely applies. Just try to co-operate with prospective partners.

      4. Kubrick said on March 8, 2018 at 3:55 pm

        @Jody thornton.
        I concur with you in regard to the vibes in the palemoon forum,i too have been at the receiving end of a matt tobin rage out for simply asking a question about palemoon,so i am in total agreement with you in that regard.However who or whom creates the browser is of little consequence to me personally as i merely am just a dumb thick user “that incidentally was tobins exact terminology.”

        As for PM being perfect..nope not quite and nothing is really but i do feel they have a huge uphill struggle before them and woe betide anybody who mentions this in the forum as i again got shot down in flames so i gave in.

        Much respect to you jody for your lengthy reply and it deserved a reply from me.Incidentally i have FF57 installed also and it works just fine except for the lack of full themes,but there you go thats how the cookie crumbles.
        Best wishes.

  13. Rick A. said on March 7, 2018 at 2:27 pm

    i always read about Pale Moon users and their forums and how people in the forum are treated sometimes, so i just glanced over there and lol, they made a post about Ghacks and it’s users and commenters.

    https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18527

    1. Jody Thornton said on March 9, 2018 at 5:25 am

      Apparently, there were posts removed from here, but I don’t see any that were (this was according to the PM thread you linked). Oh well!

  14. Ed7874 said on March 7, 2018 at 3:22 pm

    Stoped using Firefox once i found Pale Moon times ago.

  15. daveb said on March 7, 2018 at 5:49 pm

    I use palemoon. I used to use FF but they’ve dumbed it down too much and continually insist on shadowing chrome. If I wanted to use chrome I would, so Ive gotten away from FF. It was fine back in the day, but now if you ever get a piece of the UI or now backend things like plugins that you like, they make it a problem. Everyone has to continually play the upgrade fetish game, and Im just not having it. If I have a functionality I like, Im done. Add to it, thats awesome, but Im very rarely going to accept it being taken away if there are other options available.

  16. lord lestat said on March 10, 2018 at 10:44 am

    @Francois Ouveret

    Haha! I guess that is the literal meaning of the word pwned! Good one :D

  17. Sajadi said on March 10, 2018 at 2:33 pm

    Still using Pale Moon and i can not complain at all. And i see no reason why i should trade it against Waterfox or Quantum.

    I rather would use something like Vivaldi or Otter or Brave before i ever would touch that Quantum stuff which is walking into the zero UI customization direction.