Microsoft responds to Windows 10 upgrade concerns
Microsoft Marketing Chief Chris Capossela joined the Windows Weekly team this week for a questions and answers session covering HoloLens, Windows 10, Surface 4 and other Microsoft related questions.
One question touched Microsoft's upgrade push on Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 systems, and the fact that the company's methods to get users to upgrade to Windows 10 have become more aggressive.
Users reported for instance that Microsoft changed the upgrade notification prompt by removing the option to opt-out of the upgrade. The company seems to A-B test various options but all have in common that users are left without an option to opt-out.
While it is possible to close the upgrade prompt using the x-icon of the window, it is very likely that less experienced users won't know about that option.
Windows 10 upgrade concerns
Capossela argued that Microsoft is trying to find the right balance as it moved to Windows as a Service, and that it is trying to reduce the fragmentation of the install base by getting users to upgrade to Windows 10.
Look we made Windows 10 for free for anybody who has a Windows 7 or 8 machine. You can call that freemium if you want, but that was a decision, you know we did not take that decision lightly.
For us, it was just so incredibly important to try to end the fragmentation of the Windows install base, and so we think that every machine that is capable of running Windows 10 we should be doing everything we possibly can to get people to move to Windows 10.
We always want to give them the choice, and we are trying to find the right UI constructs, we are trying to find the right upgrade constructs that we think are going to please as many people as possible.
Another reason for pushing Windows 10 upgrades hard is that Microsoft is worried about the user experience as software or hardware may not work well or at all on older systems.
But we do worry when people are running an operating system that is 10 years old that the next printer they buy is not going to work well, or they buy a new game, they buy Fallout 4, a very popular game and it does not work on a bunch of older machines.
And so, as we are pushing our hardware partners to build great new stuff that takes advantage of Windows 10 that obviously makes the old stuff really bad and not to mention viruses and security problems.
So, we really are trying to push people to get to Windows 10.
Now the good thing about Windows is that lots and lots of people care and you get constant feedback. You know, we are willing to put up with some level of discomfort if we feel like we are getting more and more people to a safer, better operating system that is frankly better for everyone in the ecosystem.
Capossela referred to automatic updates on other device types, Apple's iPhone, Microsoft's Xbox and other devices, and how people are comfortable with the mechanism on those devices, and that this change in the PC world is "slightly more uncomfortable" for people because of the PC's longstanding history.
Microsoft is aware that its pushy methods are angering some users.
We are going to keep at it. We are going to try to find that right balance, but we just know there is a lot of people out there who constantly kick the can down the street without a little bit more of a, frankly, a push.
And so, you know, there is no doubt with a base as big as ours, it is hard to move anyone to a new model without angering some people.
Microsoft will continue to push Windows 10 upgrades, and it is likely that the new operating system will be pushed even more aggressively than it is right now.
While the company is aware that its actions are angering some users, mostly those who don't want to upgrade, those user numbers seem to pale in comparison to users taking Microsoft up on the offer and upgrading their machines to the new operating system.
You can listen to the whole session by following the link in the first paragraph of the article.
“No” means “no”.
We Are Microsoft, Resistance is FuTile. (Pronounced as written.)
Earl, if you have heard of Star Trek: The Next Generation TV Series or if there are any fans of the series out there, this is today’s version of The Borg. (wry grin)
I tend to buy my computers for years of future use so I was very mad when I checked both my laptop and desktop at the OEM sites and found they would not be supported for Windows 10. The laptop is a Dell XPS 17 (702x) with a core I7, 8MB ram, intel HD3000 graphics (not supported by Intel), auxiliary Nvidia 555m graphics (at least this is supported by Nvidia), Samsung SSD (for boot drive), great HD 1920×1080 screen, backlit keyboard…etc. I know it’s a few years old but it’s still plenty fast and runs everything. The desktop is a HP e9280t also with a Core I7, 8MB ram, Samsung SSD (for boot drive), Nvidia GeForce GTX 750Ti 2GB GDDR5 graphics (excellent replacement for original AMD card and supported), Logitech backlit keyboard, great HD 22″ monitor…etc. It’s also a few years old but still fast.
My main problem is the slight of hand Microsoft is trying to pull. Yes, I get the constant nags which state these computers are ready to go — get Windows 10; for FREE! But if the OEMs and various manufacturers have abandoned all updates and drivers, why would I take the chance on Windows 10? The computers are working great with Windows 7 and the operating system will be supported to 1/14/2020. Bug fixes, patches and other updates will also keep rolling out until the end of this decade, ensuring that Windows 7 will remain protected against malware and other threats.
Thanks, Microsoft. What a great free offer!!!!!!!!!
I won’t be helping to add to Microsoft’s all-important operating system user numbers.
In Windows 7 you were 10% in bed with the NSA. In Windows 8 it got a bit worse. In Windows 10 you are 99% in bed with the NSA,
You have installed hidden IDs on devices. You have given the NSA direct access to all your systems and servers. You do not tell us what is in your updates. But you insist we take updates whether we want to or not. You can provide updates to specific devices.
Here’s the thing. We’re quite bright. And we’re quite technical. And we’re quite clued in. We’ve all heard of Stuxnet and we know how it worked. We know the most difficult thing about Stuxnet was the delivery mechanism.
And now we look at Windows 10… And we see the NSA’s perfect delivery mechanism. “Updates” that are unexplained. Updates that have to be accepted. Updates that can be targeted. In short, its a spy’s wet dream.
We haven’t done anything wrong. So we don’t see why we should be tracked. We don’t see why anyone should know where we are, what we bought or how we paid. Its nobody else’s business.
We know you put those kind of words in your terms and conditions, and we know you say you are keen on “security” and “privacy”. But we see absolutely no evidence of that at all. Frankly, the NSA runs your company now, not you. But we sense BG doesn’t really care so long as as the money keeps rolling in.
So, we’ll stick to Wndows 7, thanks very much. And then switch to Linux – just in case you thought you’d get there eventually.
There was a way to say no? I didn’t see it. Now all of my files are wiped out. I think this calls for a class action lawsuit.
My partner had Windows 7 on her laptop and then we upgraded it to Windows 8, Windows 8.1 and finally 10.
When we upgraded to Windows 10 I created a Microsoft account for her so that she could sign in with all the available benefits attached to using a Microsoft account.
Recently, after she had done a Windows 10 update, she started screaming that all the blogs were right, Windows 10 had destroyed all her files and taken her back to a brand new clean system. She was livid. Windows 10 was copping the greatest lambasting I had ever heard. ‘They are right’, she said, ‘Windows 10 is rubbish’ and on and on she went. Her files were not there, I was stunned. Maybe they’re right I thought, Windows 10 might be a rogue.
It didn’t take to long to discover that what she had done was sign in under her old user name which no longer contained her files/mail/photos etc..etc.
I signed her back in with her Microsoft username and password and ‘poof!’, magically all her files were back. I haven’t heard much from her since then.
This has caused me to wonder if any of you that have lost all their files might have made the same mistake? It is pretty easy to do and, so far, I have never experienced Windows 10 removing all my files or any of my clients files.
It could be that simple.
have the problem of constant attempts to download win 10 when it will not load on my HP G72 laptop. I cannot stop the downloads without stopping all updates. Computer use is screwed
Windows 10 is great and runs better than 7. Stop being a baby over something so stupid and upgrade. Nothing lasts forever.
I don’t see anything wrong with delaying or deciding that your lifestyle won’t include Windows 10.
I have had Windows 10 for over a year now and I like it very much. However, I don’t see anything wrong with delaying, or deciding that your lifestyle won’t include Windows 10. For some people this is a good solution. For other people it is not.
I, also, can see Microsoft’s point of view too. Ultimately, people who depend on their computers for work (or not) would be in heaven because there would be no incompatibility between versions as there is now. People would be able to print, view other people’s documents and graphics, and do a lot of other things with no issues because the manufacturers of both hardware and software would be creating their products for only Windows 10.
The only downside that I can see to this is a big one. If there are serious bugs in an upgrade or updates, Everyone Is Affected! Those who are computer savy and those who are *not.* If those who are *not* were using Windows 7 and, therefore, weren’t affected, that would be ideal.
Perhaps, the computers that are sold now at a lower price for those who just send emails and look at a few Web sites could use Windows 7, while any computers used for purposes above that, would always have Windows 10 installed on them. Just a thought off the top of my head. Maybe, it’s not realistic. Just putting it out there. :)
just use LTSB
“We”, “we”, “we”, “we”, “we”.
It’s clear why MS wants everybody to switch to Win10 NSA-Edition.
But why should the user want to switch? They conveniently leave that unanswered.
“And so, as we are pushing our hardware partners to build great new stuff that takes advantage of Windows 10 that obviously makes the old stuff really bad and not to mention viruses and security problems.”
What a truckload of BS.
That sentence from Microsoft is just gross. Great advantages like TPM 2.0? Yeah, because we need more freedom-restricting stuff, officially for “security”. Of course. After one year, PCs with Windows 10 need to enforce this. Just look at this graph from Microsoft, used in an article on heise.de: http://3.f.ix.de/scale/geometry/695/q75/imgs/18/1/4/5/3/8/3/8/WinHEC-Win10-TPM-Pflicht-120ec73ff5fe3afb.png
Ha! You took the words from my mouth.
Well played Sir.
Thanks for removing wmc….you can keep your win 10 thank you.
You can redownload it from the Microsoft website, its not gone forever.
No, you cannot download WMC for Windows 10. They have replaced WMC with a CD Player. I have a Ceton Cable card with a Time Warner cable card plugged into it, with 4 Ceton extenders on 4 TVs. This BREAKS if you install Windows 10. It’s about $1,000 down the tubes.
I am using Windows 10, version 1511, and I clicked on the start button and typed ‘Windows Media Player’. Up it came and I have been using it ever since?
I don’t understand your problem?
I do agree though that Groove is really crappy.
@GaryOC, Windows Media Center (WMC) is different than Windows media player.
A random dismissal – and, if you will, insult – of critical voices of concerned individuals and organisations as ‘discomfort’ by someone whose intellect prevents him from putting things more eloquently. Microsoft must be crowded with zombies. The quote ‘great new stuff that takes advantage of Windows 10 that obviously makes the old stuff really bad’ really says it all.
More BS from M$.
Right on. Windows was somewhat good up till version 7 (excluding Vista), but the people that run it now couldn’t even run a hotdog stand.
Quoting Microsoft Marketing Chief Chris Capossela,
“[…] there is a lot of people out there who constantly kick the can down the street without a little bit more of a, frankly, a push.”
Not in the Windows 10 scenario. Those who kick the can are mainly those who have a reasonable and rational reason to do so. Those who need a push could very well advance without being pushed so aggressively. This statement is nonsense in this context.
“And so, as we are pushing our hardware partners to build great new stuff that takes advantage of Windows 10 that obviously makes the old stuff really bad and not to mention viruses and security problems.”
That’s more than pushing, it’s kicking, like “OK keep your old stuff but don’t be surprised if new software/devices won’t run correctly because if we can’t push you we can nevertheless push the developers”
It’s definitely war between a dictatorship and rebellions.
As an advertisement here in France once put it, “Paradise? OK, but if I choose it”
Microsoft is in no way entitled to consider its policies legitimate de facto to impose themselves in a non-contractual way : I have bought a license for my OS and it was nowhere stipulated that I’d be obliged to switch it to another OS. The license is valid and the OS “updatable” within the limits of its lifetime with no mention explicit nor implicit of a mandatory upgrade. Period.
Mr Capossela is the Marketing Chief at Microsoft !!???
I quote “there is a lot of people who constantly kick the can, etc. etc.”
If such an incoherent person, who seems to have difficulty in speaking proper English, is the boss then one can presume that this inability to communicate affects the rest of MS.
Therefore, it is not surprising that MS has poor technical support, poorly written software, and a total lack of empathy with the END USERS of the software.
” We, We, We”. What about considering YOU, YOU, YOU, the end user who has to suffer the consequences of botched updates enforced with unstoppable auto installation !!!
Relying on the terms and conditions of a EULA, which has been crafted by corporate lawyers, to say that users have no legal rights to compensation for corporate incompetence is ridiculous.
Of course, the Win 10 super aficionados state that users should clone and image their PCs or Laptops before the update. How is that possible when it is done without warning !
NB I appreciate constructive responses, either positive or negative. Therefore, Trolls and Flamers, do not waste energy typing a response.
I think I just like Windows 10. I am beginning to enjoy using it. Thank you MS for the upgrade.
I enjoy using Windows 10 too, music, movies, banking, surfing, gaming. No problems. I do hope, that the Windows 10 upgrade is safer than previous versions though, I’m not familiar with virus stuff, other than using Norton to try and protect myself.
I downloaded Win 10 the first day I could and have not had a single problem with the operating system. I am on the computer about 5 hours a day…every day.
I think our definition of “service” is different than Microsoft’s definition.
the action of helping or doing work for someoneâ€¦
employment as a servant (with Win users being the servants)â€¦
There’s another definition of “service” relating to sex that MS might be using – butt I’ll let you work that one out.
“and so we think that every machine that is capable of running Windows 10 we should be doing everything we possibly can to get people to move to Windows 10”
Um, it’s not your computer and it’s not your choice to make. Deliberately going against peoples wishes and not giving them a way to permanently opt-out is not the right way to go about things.
“Capossela referred to automatic updates on other device types, Apple’s iPhone, Microsoft’s Xbox”
So, toys not work machines.
“You know, we are willing to put up with some level of discomfort”
IT’S NOT YOUR CHOICE!
If Microsoft wanted people to upgrade from their old OS at a faster pace, they should have maybe finished Windows 10 first before trying to push it so aggressively. When it was released in July it felt like an Alpha and yet they released it anyway. Even today, it still feels like a Beta after Threshold 2. On top of that, they should have addressed peoples concerns over ‘features’ with privacy implications. All it would have taken would have been a one button solution to change all the default settings with potential privacy concerns to opt-in, rather than opt-out.
Why can’t they comprehend that stability and privacy are of a much greater importance for some people, particularly work machines, than having the latest OS? And that forcing them against their will, will only create resentment.
Security sliders, eh?
So you slide them to “No” so Windows doesn’t track you.
Question: sure, you can’t where you are on a map, but what makes you think Windows 10 takes any notice of the settings in the info it sends back to base? And to the NSA?
Surely a better solution is to have all the mapping, payment, tracking software in separate hardware that you can plug in if you want to – like a GPS module – or in apps that you can install only if you want to.
Microsoft are pushing Win10 because app stores are where the money is, not because it’s concerned about stuff not running on old OSs, or the fragmenting of the OS base. It has already committed to supporting the older ones for X years!
F your Fallout MS.
I couldn’t give a crap what you want MS. This is my machine, not yours. Get that into your heads. Furthermore, understand that a lot of people don’t like being pushed. The more you try and push them, the more determined they get to push back. Your attempts at forcing Windows 10 onto people’s PCs against their wishes makes me even MORE determined not to “upgrade” to it.
Also, one other point. You took away control from people like myself with Windows 10 by making updates mandatory and by not giving me the choice of where and when to install them. That is a deal-breaker. If I cannot control my own PC, then Windows 10 is useless to me. This is another reason why I will not be upgrading to Windows 10 on my computers any time soon.
uh, you do know you don’t own Windows though right? You just license it.
DaveyK December 29, 2015 at 1:59 pm #
I couldn’t give a crap what you want MS. This is my machine, not yours.
The machine is the owners, windows is not. So get rid of windows and they will get the message if enough do just that.
Correct. He owns a Windows license. He wants the license to stay on the version that he has that works well. I’ve done the same thing. Three Windows 7 PC’s will stay on Windows 7. Our other three, which were Windows 8.1 Pro, are now running Windows 10 Pro. There have been issues. On my two year old laptop Windows 10 was trying to install drivers for hardware that wasn’t even on the laptop. That’s plain weird. So, I disabled driver updates in System. Also, I had to perform a reset after about one month because the machine was crawling. After six hours of reinstalling my desktop programs it’s running fine. Windows 10 just isn’t as polished or trouble free as Windows 7 is, at this point in time. I’m sure it’ll be awesome someday.
NO actually. I BOUGHT Win 7 Professional with the ability to transfer it to another computer. After paying for it, I would love that MS send a Bailiff round to take it back.
Whatever MS says in EULAs or corporate statements, in the UK, where I live, their lawyers would be laughed out of court.
He never said he owned Windows 10.He said he owns his machine!Which means,he has every choice as to what he wants to install on it.I absolutely agree!! You may only be renting a house,as opposed to owning it but,the owner can not tell you how to furnish it.
Are you an empty-suit from ms?
mostly those who don’t want to upgrade, those user numbers seem to pale in comparison to users taking Microsoft up on the offer
huh, if that were to be true, W10 (read it as waiting) would have a userbase of 90%, in reality win 7 still has a greater userbase then w10 & W8(.1) combined !!
Yep. He’s bald-face lying. In other words, he’s in marketing.
Good point, but it’s even worse than you suggest.
“Whatâ€™s curious is that in November, Windows 10â€™s predecessors did not slip as in previous months. Windows 8 managed to regain 0.34 percentage points to 2.88 percent, while Windows 8.1 grabbed another 0.47 points to 11.15 percent. Together, they owned 14.03 percent of the market at the end of October.”
By Nov. 1 Win10 was only at 9% of the market. MS looks desperate to me. They are drooling over China but the Chinese will not let Win10 through the front door unless it is altered to satisfy the Chinese government. Is it possible the Chinese consider native Win10 to be spyware?
But, given that it is so easy to upgrade, and actually quite difficult and a real pain to avoid, I can’t help thinking the ones who choose not to upgrade must have a good reason. I suspect they are very probably the ones who know what they are doing.
Most people are stupid. Most people bought PPI insurance that was useless and not needed. So while true, your argument needs quite a lot of work, I think.
Microsoft doesn’t give a hoot about the concerns and complaints of a small minority of users (the few who happen to dominate the comments here), as long as the big silent majority of average computer users will let themselves meekly be driven into the Windows 10 corral.
In fact, Microsoft’s pushing policy works in two ways for them here. Right now they are *intentionally* driving away the most aware, most critical, most experienced, most tinkering, most independent users. Once this tiny subgroup has made the switch to Linux, this will leave Microsoft with a still-huge, but over-all much more meek and all-accepting flock of users.
When in 10 years this small subgroup of most critical users will have migrated to (and focused on) Linux, these critical users will then spend less time writing negatively about the shortcomings, privacy issues, customizing etc. of Windows. Why? Because once Linux is their main OS, these people will become more concerned with similar issues in Linux. So in their criticism they will then focus more on Linux, write in Linux forums etc., while they will write about the Windows user experience less often than they do now.
From a Microsoft publicity point of view, losing these most-critical users is in the end a good thing. If you think about it, this is no dumb strategy. Actually, it’s a smart strategy.
I agree with your analysis but perhaps less on the consequences you perceive. Masses educate exponentially with time, I believe, hence if Microsoft doesn’t take this into consideration they’re definitely on the wrong long-term path, even if on a short/medium term it can be an efficient policy. What we usually call the elites are no more than the announcers, the avant-garde of perspectives which arrive to the masses sometimes decades later, or sometimes never when those elites have mistaken. But time, I believe, holds truth, education, knowledge. True progress persists and elaborates in light, otherwise it is nothing but fake. Time is our world’s judge.
@ Henk van Setten
I get where you’re coming from, however I think losing those most-critical users is not a good thing for Microsoft.
Those small minority of techie users quite often look after other peoples machines and advise them, so if Microsoft lose them, they also lose the only people steering average users from just using iPads for everything instead.
My reply to Henk, Tom and Tim.
I wrote recently that I had uninstalled Win10 from 17 users computers who had been “upgraded” from Win 7 and who wanted their computers fixed by rolling back the “upgrade”. Reinstalling Win 7 also entailed fixing driver software which Win 10 had replaced with generic MS drivers that did not work.
In the last week, I have rolled back another 4 computers,making a total of 21 users. These users were people who want to use email, Facebook, etc., only. They are NOT interested in Cortana, touch screens, etc.
They are Mr and Mrs average user. If I have done this for 21 people, how many other Win 10 installs have rolled back? I wonder if MS telemetry is logging the roll backs and the MS management is beginning to panic?
Problem for Microsoft is that those most aware, most critical, most experienced, most tinkering, most independent users are often the people making the decisions in IT departments all over the world.
Now all we need is to have Linux distributions make installing printer drivers as trivial as it is on Windows. Download driver. Click on setup.exe. Done. Once printer setup is dirt simple, Linux will indeed grow in popularity and use. With over 1000 distros, that simplicity may be hard to come by.
Then where’s the market share? I see what you’re trying to say, but I get more calls from people asking for help to undo their pushed “upgrades” (which most don’t understand as being an “upgrade”) than I’ve ever gotten for help installing a new OS. I should set up a backup business, for real.
And this seems to hold true mostly for the boomers who sort of don’t like change. They’re not concerned about their privacy as much as “where did this button go” and “why can’t I find my files?” Computers simply aren’t “devices” (though OTAs are a whole new ball of wax); the baby boomers who wanted some measure of internet-enabled computing and had their kids set them up with XP or Win7 simply aren’t buying into this OS “service” bullshit. They want what they had, they’re not installing Half Life 2.5 or Far Cry 4, and they simply have no use for Win 10.
Yes, many DO get the push install. But how many KEEP it? It’s reportedly constantly updating, which negates the fast boot of Win8; the company looks confused AF; and a “computer” (vernacular) is not a cell phone. Win10-Push is a total fail. M$ needs to drop back five and punt. If it ain’t broke…
@Trebuchette – I understand exactly what u mean! Just about everyday,someone asks me how to either get rid of windows 10 nagware or windows 10 altogether because,like you said,95% of the people I know are not power users.They just want to check email,play a few games on facebook and skype.They don’t care about the latest and greatest.I read a few comments above,3 in a row,from users who gave glowing reviews on their personal user experiences,with windows 10.All 3 basically said the same thing:”I’ve never had a problem with windows 10.All of my games run just fine!” I was like,wow!! It’s a shame that’s all they care about.I love gaming also,but I refuse to skirt the privacy,compatibility and forced-upgrade issues regarding windows 10,because I can’t think beyond gaming.Just goes to show how shallow some people can be,in their reasoning.Capossela stated the dangers of running an older OS,or any OS other than windows 10,anyway.One of those dangers being,not being able to play the latest games but,and he knows just as I do,that any gaming or compatibility issues is more than likely due to needing hardware upgrades rather than an OS upgrade,ie,newer graphics or sound card or cpu or ram.He tries to play on users’ fears by talking about how devastating the security issues are,if your on an older OS,when,with a little common-sense and a lot of research,you won’t have to worry about such issues.Hell,windows 10 can be hacked just as likely and as easily as any other OS.I’m still running windows xp on 2 of my machines and I have never had a problem.So,ms can kiss my a$$.
@Trebuchette – And,by the way,I’ve been asking the same question,since October:MS is always talking about how many people have upgraded to windows 10 but,never about how many have rolled back to their previous OS,from windows 10,and I can’t find any stats or numbers,articles or anything else on this issue,anywhere.If you happen to come across any information regarding this,I would really appreciate it if you,or anyways else who is interested in these stats,would post the information or a link to it here.MS would never release these figures because ,they know these figures would deter people,who are either on the fence concerning upgrading or planning to upgrade,from doing so.Thank you,in advance…..
I upgraded and tried Windiws 10 for about a week. Did not like it. Workflow and command structure changed and many things were not where they were before. It was frustrating enough that I reverted back to Windows 7. If there were a legacy mode that emulated Win 7 structure I would have stuck with 10. Maybe they could work on this. I hear there is 3rd party software that accomplishes this but what’s the point of adding software just to make your operating system behave the way it should? Same goes for telemetry blocking. Just too many issues at this time :-(
I am not sure if anybody is aware, but you even get that Nagging screen if you have a Windows 7 PC with older hardware – in my case ‘CPU not compatible’. This is of course not my main PC, but i get the constant popup to upgrade to Windows 10, and then it tells me i have to upgrade the computer… No way to make it stop. Well, there is one, and i will do that today.. Like with my main PC, after using windows since the early 90’s (Windows 3,1) i am moving to LinuxMint…. And i am not regretting it at all!!
Worked in IT security for years… Win7 is a toy. If you wish to play with toys, go ahead. You have no secrets now.
If you want to rebel from “big brother” Linux is open source… “roll your own” …once you finish verifying your compiler, libraries, binary apps, etc are not planting a trap door in whatever you build.
Finally, if you are paranoid, why are you using chips made in China based on firmware and logic you cannot hope to see, let alone verify trap-door free?
Maybe we’re just not paranoid. Think about it.
I love the comment from Karl Quick “Win 7 is a toy”. If it is a toy, why is it that so many techies on this and other sites do not want to “upgrade” . Why does Win 7 have nearly 60 % of the total installations ?
Win 7 is stable and security patches have fixed many security problems.
Win 10 was and is an under developed OS. The first release, as someone else commented, was the Alpha release which the “me first” installed to have bragging rights in the pub/office AND because it was FREE. The 1511 release was the Beta release to fix Alpha. I Iook forward to the release of the stable version, but I will not be holding my breath until mid 2016.
XP, Vista, Win 7 and Win 8 can be controlled by the user vis-a-vis updates, telemetry, etc
Win 10 forces updates on to computers, causing many problems, without a by your leave and phones home to Redmond and uploads user information.
Thousands of third party programs, which are efficient and useful, have been dismissed and derided by the trendy Tenners and Microsoft as Legacy software, to the extent that Win 10 unistalls them WITHOUT notice.
Win 10 could be classed as a toy because it was developed in part to operate on Microsoft’s phones and notepads in order to compete against Apple. OOPS, no more NOKIA, the company which cost MS billions to buy and millions more in compensation to sacked staff.
You are not unique in working IT security. I worked as an IT security guy for Hewlett Packard, Novell and Compaq to name a few.
I am not paranoid. What I object to is incoherent press conferences given by what appears to be a semi-illiterate MS Marketing chief. The subliminal message in his presentation was that MS needs to reduce costs by switching users to Win 10 and away from the older OSes. Bill Gates was ruthless but at least he had an excellent business model unlike the current crop of no hopers !
Win 7 is no longer updated with security patches …. what is left, from the perspective of security, is an unsupported toy, awaiting attack, or already sufficiently compromised to conclude there is no secrets there worth exploiting. If you are not network connected, no problem. But I am not talking about dedicated, backroom systems. (Where many Win7 systems reside and make sense.)
You are correct that lots networked things can end up allowing telemetry, trap doors, etc. when they are updated. This is true of OSes and 3rd party software as well. ….say you only like vendor xyz’s word processing software, and an update arrives. You trust xyz with your security? Why? What can you sue them for? Can you at least embarrass them? ….and how would you know if the update was key word searching what you edit and sending copies of interest to a 3rd party?
If you join a community with a LARGE number of users, many who ARE somewhat paranoid, and the community has really deep pockets, both to be sued for mistakes and a profit stream to be cut off by an embarrassing flaw, then you have some hope.
Lots of eyes on lots of data, reports go back to the community & members.
And because they are all running the same OS/common-apps and a patch can be quickly applied across the community without even an administrator having to bless it…. millions of machines are secured before they were ever breached via the new flaw.
There is a trade off:
– on one hand you have to trust the community management (in this case, Microsoft) to not deliberately breach your security;
– on the other hand, you have to trust you can monitor and spot exploits as they pass through you firewall, analyze the problem, and fix it on your own or sue someone for enough to justify the expense of lawyers, etc.
For the vast majority of us, we join the community. (“collective”?)
Frankly, Microsoft Win10 is not a product, but a service. It is a security monitoring and patching service, remote backup service, and an engineering department working to improve all these services and add new features.
Like I said….. You are welcome to “roll your own”. I worked for decades trying to get one of the largest companies in the world to do just that to ensure security…. but the required security review boards and the delays in getting software out of the door made my company give up on Unix, Linux, and computers in general, and MUCH to my embarrassment, we sold and used Windows “toys”.
Now, MS has grown so large it is able to do what my company could not do. It is rolling it’s own security (and buying up 3rd parties that understand the problems) and achieving the economy of scale that is necessary for quick detection and response to attacks.
Please…. understand: I don’t work for Microsoft and hated MS most of my career. But I am a disabled veteran of the UNIX wars and remember the carnage of dozens of companies that were rolled over on one side by Windows and on the other side by IBM. As a researcher, I long ago concluded that the weakest link in security is the maintenance personnel (and Snowden proved I was right there), and our blind acceptance of the integrity of the chips we ALL run in our systems.
Chip manufacturers are not required to present their logic circuitry or their firmware to security review. Further, they provide no easy read-out of the logic in any given chip to verify it has not been tampered with. I won’t go into details, but the lesson of real-life experience is clear: we cannot trust hardware/firmware we can’t see to not have data dependent trap doors, virtually impossible to trip without knowing the sequence of events that unlock them.
So understand the reality: we are all dependent upon trusting someone, somewhere, some of the time. And there are a lot of bad guys out there who take advantage of those who think they have nothing to fear.
@Karl Quick, Windows 7 is supported until 2020 and is still receiving security patches.
I have updated all computers to Windows 10 except 1. And no matter how much they beg, plead, or whine, the last one will remain Windows 7, UNLESS Microsoft wants to reimburse me for A Ceton cable card, and 4 ceton extenders, OR, make it so they are USABLE in Windows 10. Otherwise, upgrading to ANYTHING that will just BREAK my entertainment system.
I have done the same re my entertainment system. Not really a problem since that computer is dedicated to being a Window Media Center server to my X-box 360 and has no other users and only the minimal of apps.
I think the real reason for not bringing over WMC is to push X-box One on us.
At the rate cable cutting is proceeding, I suspect it won’t be long before we will retire cable and satellite TV services. I use Roku on TVs for guests and kids.
Windows media Player is still on the latest version of Windows 10 (1511).
I got it by clicking on the start button and typing ‘Windows Media Player’ and I’ve been using it ever since.
I absolutely hate Groove, it is ugly in the extreme.
I don’t know if that means that you can still use it as Windows Media Centre? Aren’t they the same thing? You may just have to re-establish the file associations to get it working again.
His answers are jaw-droppingly arrogant. And those answers boil down to this:
“Fu*k you. We’re doing it.”
The rest is bullshit marketing-speak.
This is basically their message. And this is basically my message to MS regarding Win10 update:
“Fu*k you, I’m not doing it!”
Capossela says it’s important to end the fragmentation of the Windows install base but it’s fragmented because of past decisions Microsoft made, if they didn’t want a fragmented Windows install base then why did they release new version while the existing one is still supported, no one forced them to offer 10 years of support they made that decisions themselves because that’s what business users expected and they wanted a piece of IBM’s action.
He then goes on to say “We always want to give them the choice” well how about choosing to say no thanks to Windows 10 and never being bothered again, Is that an easy or simple choice i can make?
I’ll tell you what Capossela, how about you let people make the choice to download drivers for their new printer on their 10 year old OS, how about letting them choose if they want to buy new hardware to play fallout 4 as upgrading to a newer OS isn’t suddenly going to make it playable if it wasn’t before.
If they wanted the right balance how about letting people choose when to upgrade instead of pushing them.
This is deja vu all over again – no? Didn’t msoft take this arrogant view with the release of win8? “Use metro or use another OS, we don’t care.”
The change to win10 is all for msoft. They don’t give a damn about the millions of non-techy types where it takes them weeks or months to learn where everything is on a new system. As craposeller kept saying, this is for encouraging developers back to windows mobile with the Universal app approach. While they are not truly universal, they can all be compiled from the one basic source code just with different output-platform settings.
The universal uptake of win10/win10-mobile is all about msoft and the customer’s comfort be damned. Oh, wait, there are no customers, only lessees. We are lucky to have msoft! LOL (just converting the last of my legacy windows apps over to Linux)
I was using an end-of-life Vista computer and was faced with the choice of upgrading to a newer MS system or switching to Linux. I bit the bullet and moved to Mint, and it does everything I want it to, no muss, no fuss. From what I’ve been reading lately I’d say I made a good move!
Microsoft is storing automatically users’ sensitive encryption keys in the cloud
Microsoft backs up users’ encryption keys to its servers, The Intercept’s Micah Lee reports â€” arguably undermining security protections….
THanks for this useful link ilev. It made a very interesting and thought provoking read.
The article ilev linked to highlights the arrogance of Microsoft (IMHO), while some of features maybe useful they set the default option to possibly the worst setting for customers, that’s probably a reflection on American culture more than anything as unlike the rest of the world America assume you want everything, opt-out if you don’t.
This is the most retarded attitude that I’ve seen from Microsoft in a long while.
“We always want to give them the choice, and we are trying to find the right UI constructs, we are trying to find the right upgrade constructs that we think are going to please as many people as possible.”
Hey Chris …. The “right UI constructs” is nothing less than a equivalent sized button that says “No Thanks” and then you turn your idiot marketing tail away and leave the people alone.
So here’s the deal: I really REALLY like Windows 10. I like it far more than Windows 7.
But I should add, that I have gone out of my way, to extraordinary means to STOP forced automatic updates. And boy I am glad I did so, because those of my colleagues who did not, have had their MS-Outlook badly fried and damaged in the last 2 months of updates. (Yup, 2 months in a row, Microsoft has incompetently pushed/forced updates that broke many people’s Outlook). This caused them a loss of many days of productivity.
But not me!
Because again, I went out of my way, and took extraordinary means (for the first time in my life as a Windows user), to make sure I stopped those automatic updates, and put a damper on telemetry data-gathering.
Unfortunately, most regular windows users will not know how to do what I did, yet… but I suspect the day is coming soon, when the vast majority of most Windows-users will begin installing tools to stop Microsoft’s forced tactics.
I know from my own circle, that those forced tactics are leaving many regular (non-power users) with HIGHLY NEGATIVE feelings towards Microsoft, that I have never witnessed before.
Personally, I believe that those users computers are NOT the property of Microsoft, nor is their local area network (including bandwidth/connection) NOT Microsoft’s property, so seriously Microsoft needs to leave them the f-ck alone already, and stop doing as these please with other people’s property/computers.
In short… Microsoft’s tactics have severely dampered my own enthusiasm and enjoyment of Windows-10, and nobody I speak with anymore will even listen to me when I try to tell them and explain why I like Windows 10.
Quite the contrary: they seem shocked that I have anything positive to say about Windows 10 after what’s been going on lately in terms of heavy handed high pressure upgrades, torrent style sharing of Windows-updates among users, and telemetry data gathering.
AS A SIDE NOTE about Windows Weekly:
I have been listening to that show since the beginning, around 2008, and loved it.
But I was HIGHLY disappointed with the show in the last 6 months approximately, when Paul Thurrott simply ridicules, and dismisses people’s concerns about forced telemetry, and forced upgrades, even going so far as to repeatedly ridicule Steve Gibson, for his concerns that he shares with so many of us about that.
I had a lot of respect for Paul Thurrott, until he started flippantly dismissing our concerns about Windows 10 like that (and especially his ongoing ridicule of Steve Gibson), and for that reason I’m considering the possibility of no longer subscribing to his show.
So after almost a decade of respecting Paul Thurrott and enjoying his show, I find myself now developing some strong negative vibes towards him, for the way he has dismissed these concerns.
>> I had a lot of respect for Paul Thurrott,
Me too, but it seems to this cynical old fart that when Thurrott quit his day job a few months back at Supersite and went out on his own, it was about the same time he suddenly became an advocate for “trust me win10 is OK.”
Also not hard to look back through the issues videos to that to see that Foley and LaPorte also suddenly became zealots for the win10 safety for the user at about the same time.
Just saying ya know.
Why has there been no class action LAWSUIT against M$ for this CRAP?!!!
Because when you install Windows 10 you agree to the license agreement that says you can’t do that.
Hello to everyone from my “Think Penguin” laptop with Linux Mint 64 bit O.S. :)
I think the ultimate appliance is the smartphone. I have been using my Win10 mobile to dictate messages, and with recent upgrades, sharing favorites, reading list and (sometimes) history across all my machines. One login, one cloud, all backed up automatically.
I await a phone with the retinal scan login. (Too cheap to buy a Lumia 950 now.) Then my phone will be the retinal scan appliance to all my systems.
I also await proper integration of Skype so the Phone app on every platform will place calls. I am already notified on any PCs I’m logged into whenever I receive or miss a call in my phone.
My contact list is People and shared across 2 desktops, 2 tablets, and 2 phones. My calendar is Outlook Calendar, likewise shared. Since my Outlook calendar had long been shared with my wife, we see each other’s schedule on our phones, all synced.
MS is not trying to make a user friendly appliance out of the PC, but trying to migrate PC users to Win10 phones because they too see the “information appliance” of the future (nearly the present) as the smartphone.
You may see a device MS sells that lets you run a Lumia 950 as a desktop (HDMI, multiple USB ports, etc.) It is sometimes mistakenly advertised as the “Continuum” feature of Win10. The device, I think, is just a way to demonstrate the performance of that phone running Office in a desktop setting. The actual continuum feature is the way screen and keyboard adapt from smartphone to huge TV without breaking applications.
And again. I’m 15 years retired, have no stock in MS (except through mutual funds), and not trying to defend this beast of a company. I am, however, a futurist who enjoys watching the evolution of technology.
â€œOverall, revenues from phones came in at $1.4 billion for the quarter (Q3 March 2015), which was down 16% compared to a year ago. Microsoft also sold 24.7 million non-Lumia phones during the quarter, which was also down compared to a year ago. Microsoft said the ‘market for feature phones continues to contract’. Although Microsoft sold 8.6 million units of Lumia smartphones, that is down from last quarter where it sold 10.5 million.
Windows Phone revenue declined by 16% primarily due to a â€˜higher mix of low royalty devicesâ€™.â€
MS is now in the business of building laptops/tablets (Surface Pros). Perhaps MS does consider computers important.
I have been using both Windows 7 and Windows 10 on Lenovo Laptops. I wish I could easily roll back my Lenovo with W10 as it has the start menu not working and Cortana not working bug FOR WHICH MICROSOFT DOES NOT HAVE A FIX. This is cumbersome to work around. I am in a end- of -year work crunch and do not have time to reinstall software. Microsoft should stop what it is promoting and fix what is out there. By fix I mean they should get a patch that does not require a major reconfiguration of the software by the user. They should redesign their software so that it can be fixed. There does not seem to be any awareness of the inconvenience that these pushy upgrades cause or the burden of prematurely released unstable software.
I am very sorry that you are having these problems but Windows 10 has been a very good experience for me.
I have updated two of my computers to Windows 10 and have experienced none of the problems that are being complained about on this page even though we allow every upgrade that comes through? Sorry, I might have lost Windows Media Centre but as I never used it I didn’t know it was gone. I still have Windows Media Player which is much better than Groove so I’m happy with that.
Apart from those two computers I have also upgraded many of my friends computers and many of my clients have upgraded their systems and I have heard no complaints at all from these people?
Obviously people like yourself are having some problems but I don’t think it is as widespread as many of the contributors here like to suggest.
I hope that Microsoft get their finger out and get you going soon.
Could the lovers of Windows 7 tell me some things?
How fast did it take you to decide to move to Windows 7?
Why have you moved to Windows 7 from an older version?
Sounds to me you don’t actually have valid reasons for your complaints if you ain’t still on XP or older.
Im sorry, but some of the reasons why “10 is bad” is childish at best.
Biggest bit about privacy argument is YOUR AN IDIOT! If you don’t know why… Exactly!
Windows 10 has some issues, but you are kidding yourself if you think others didn’t. Only reason why we hear more complaints is coz we are more critical these days. Also, 2 things MS have given us to push our opinion more so than before… “Free” & “Feedback” via Insider & Feedback App.
You can disagree, but if you wanna come back at me, better have good reasons.
Big focus now is the more open discussions we now have with bugs being found, the less we blow it out of proportion.
Windows 7 users, full support ends in 5 years, and you will likely see total unsupported software/firmware within 2-3 years. I guess be grateful you can stay on 7 for 8-10 years. MS seem to be putting their foot down on 10 being the “last OS”. You ain’t gonna get another win 7 fix for vista on 10. MS will be finished in next 5 years or people will stop the BS and move on and get 10.
Make a bridge and get over it already.
To answer the question i moved to Windows 7 around 6 years ago, the only reason i didn’t move to it sooner was because of the changes Microsoft made to the HAL, switching drivers from kernel to user mode may have helped with stability issues but it also crippled a lot of hardware, most notably sound cards.
I switched from XP to 7 about a year before support for XP ended as 7 was the next best thing at the time, when Windows 7 is nearing its end of life i plan on switching to Linux as compared to Microsoft’s recent offerings and recent advancements in the Linux ecosystem it’s far more suited to my needs, YMMV though, that’s what choice is all about, making informed decisions.
To say some of the reasons for not liking 10 are childish is derogatory and just goes to show you don’t understand that some people have valid concerns, while they may not appear valid to you they are to the people making the decisions and for you to dismiss those reasons in such an offhanded manner just demonstrates your ignorance on the subject.
What if I want to continue playing solitaire without paying for it?
Here you go: https://www.ghacks.net/2015/12/14/install-windows-7-games-on-windows-10/
The most telling statistic would be how many people upgraded to Win 10, changed their minds, and went back to Win 7 and 8. Does Microsoft’s propaganda numbers on Win 10 adoption, count those who left the flock and went home?
I have audio interface (e-mu 1212 PCI) that doesn’t have driver support from windows 10 and never will have.
I also have Sonic Core/Creamware PCI audio interfaces that don’t have driver support for the system and these devices are highly sensitive for bad compatibility and will not perform correctly in windows 10. Until they get drivers I can’t upgrade… and I need these devices for my work.
If Microsoft is pushing upgrade to windows 10, they really should start by making ALL device vendors to upgrade the drivers of their products for that platform. No matter if it’s discontinued device or not!
Until then, upgrading has to be optional!
Or I will sue them for damages if my computer is upgraded and it breaks the compatibility of these devices without my consent and I lose revenue because they don’t work anymore.
I once had a great 8 channel in 4 out pro audio card. It did cost a fortune at the time and ran on win98. The manufacturer never did make a win2K or XP driver. Its all about capitalism. Got a new computer? Get a new card, even if your old one works perfectly.
Now, this doesn’t mean I’m against change – indeed, newer products do have better specs. However, in many cases, we have hit a plateau; where a slight increase in performance isn’t really worth the expense. But the “Ekonomy” sees it otherwise.
Windows Media Player is not Windows Media Center…
WMC turns your PC into a DVR.
There is no perfect answer as demonstrated by the angst displayed on these pages.
My comments about my experiences were meant to reinforce and answer the point made in an earlier post suggesting that ease of use is key to adoption by the masses.
As to the abysmal sales of Win8.1 phones, I am not surprised. Over 6 months have we been promised a production Win10 on phones. Only in the last month have I seen serious progress, and that still missed the Christmas window.
I stuck with Palm webOS phones for years because of their beautiful design and smooth interface. Too bad the HW was inferior before HP took over, then the software developers fled b/c they hated HP culture.
Point: No one attribute makes a successful product; it has to come together and reach highs in all dimensions (for many people) for success.
I still use windows 7 and I will not upgrade to win 10 ,as my pc every week tell me to upgrade to win 10.Thanks for the post ghacks.I find many responses here.
Avoid this turkey like you would a rabid dog!
Three things MS need to do:
1) Reinstate safe mode from boot. Having to go to a menu option inside windows and select ‘restart in safe mode’ or ‘recovery’ or whatever it’s now called is stupid if an update causes a crash loop on boot.
2) Stop making updates as aggressively mandatory
3) Stop breaking the goddamn system with updates. Check your stuff!
Guy who upgraded from 7 to 10, received an update that killed the machine, managed to start reverting to W7 only to find the system totally wiping itself out due to an error in the revert process.
Windows 10, the “gift” that keeps on giving. Reverting a computer from 10 to 7 left it with unlocalised user folders, a broken task scheduler and a broken browser service (possibly related to the browsing issue which cropped up with the 1511 update). I’m still trying to sort the latter one out.
If 10 is the “best Windows ever”, I would strongly suggest that the good people at Microsoft get a dictionary and look up the definition of terms such as “good”, “best”, “operating system”, “usable” and “people’s valuable time”. Before they decide to shove an OS down user’s throats like that, they’d better come up with something better than that glorified alpha version commonly known as “final”. Until then, they can shove it somewhere else. And the same goes of course for all the shills who seem all too happy to tell us how wrong we are for wishing to keep an older, but significantly more functional and mature OS.
MicroSuck actually believes in the Utopian Society like most socialists. No Privacy – No choice – No freedom.
As to accepting “automated upgrades” from others… well, I know google sucks. Steals info, compromises privacy. I just shut off what I can and use the damn phone as a phone – Period! I have a laptop and desktop for real computing.
Knowing MicroSuck NEVER was a friendly organization, their behavior is not surprising. It’s amazing how many third party options for avoiding the “upgrade (?) to 10” are popping up.
I know of one person who upgraded – don’t know if he’s happy, but as a fatalist he believes we are in no position to argue with MicroSuck. Well, I have to agree to a point, as Macintrash is not better option, and Unix / Linux, whatever will NEVER see acceptance. Jeez, it’s been about HALF A CENTURY folks. Always a bridesmaid, never a bride. Destined to be a geek toy.
Maybe the Chinese will come up with an option…. Mao for PCs V1.0.
Next bit of “whether you like it or not” Windows 10 crap is Microsoft making new computers ONLY compatible with Windows 10! And you thought you had a choice.
As mentioned in the article, maybe it’s time for some enterprises to talk with their lawyers.?
Dont ever Waste your time with Windows !0..
Chris Capossela is a typical microsoft fool who lies through his teeth to spread his nonsense believing his opinions means something, well it does’nt
Users are declining windows 10 by the droves and windows 10 has become so unpopular its making microsoft look like the fools they are and this is the only reason they are pushing Windows 10 down our throats, simply because people refuse to use the garbage!! .Thoses who foolishly upgraded soon realized its garbage and soon rolled back and reinstalled previous OS and wiped their hands from such garbage! as Win !0.
The simple truth is this, Windows 10 is a massive failure, and those who foolishly upgraded soon realized its garbage and rolled back to their previous OS, Business’s simply will not use Windows 10 due to security risks and more.
despite the propaganda about what you hear from microsoft, very few people use windows 10 its a huge failure and this reason is why microsoft are forcing it down everyones throat simply because as an operating system Windows 10 is as bad as it gets and when user refuse to upgrade microsoft use tactics to force you to use it yet we arent and that fact really gets under the skin of microsoft and as always weasels like Chris Capossela and his excuses and nonsense falls on deaf ears.
when will these weasels understand we people are smarter and we own them.
A class action lawsuit is looming for trying to force this garbage onto people who simply do not want anything to do with it.
As usual, Microsoft has made life complex and unnecessarily difficult with their latest upgrade, when even the most simple, straightforward activity is unfathomable.
This is why I bought a chrome book as a second laptop instead of Windows….
My next computer will be a Mac. Good bye Microsoft unwanted updates.
I am a Brazilian and English is not even my mother tong.
Now image what it is for a Brazilian who spent more money a month ago to get a new computer with Win 10, to have to wake up 1 hour earlier every day to remove all the Microsoft update sh.. that comes along with it so I can start my online class without the groove and Realtech high definition Audio driver causing trouble. I have nightmares about it every night knowing that my class performance may be harmed at anytime (It has since Sep 1st). My HP printer now can only be operated if I use the Microsof Printing Experience sth, which does not allow to scan documents and save them on PDF straight. I am forced to save them as Microsoft this or that and then convert them over to PDF, guess how? Using a Microsoft PDF converter tool.
Please don’t waste your time telling me to uninstall the printer and install it again. I did it, and wanna know what happens? I can only install it from the ORIGINAL installation CD if I use a Microsoft driver, which leads me back to square one.
YES, BIG BROTHER IS OUT THERE.
My next computer will be a Mac. Good bye Microsoft unwanted updates.
Indeed. Good bye Microsoft unwanted updates. Hello, Apple “we know what’s best for you”. That’s where MS apparently got their ideas from in the first place.
I hear Google is working on a free operational system to be launched next year.
Maybe it will be the end of the road for Microsoft Empire.
Good bye to Microsoft unwanted updates.
You did it to yourself.
This is directed to Mr. Brinkmann regarding the article “Microsoft Responds to Windows 10 Upgrade Concerns”‘ This is my first post, so it may be in the wrong section. (Please advise) I had a lot to say but decided to refrain as most of the subjects had been covered. The only problem that is irritating me the most is the pop-up, notification or whatever you call it that comes up and interrupts whatever I’m doing. I had mentioned that the only way I could get rid of it was to turn off the computer, turn in back on. I read you comment that there is an “x-icon” at top right to delete it, and indicated that only less experienced owners knew about it. Well, there is no x-icon that works for me to use. The whole page under is grey, including the x, and nothing will delete it. BTW, I know about the x. I’ve had computers since web-tv and worked up. Thank you for any help to delete this. Sometimes it does it 4 or 5 times in a row. purplepassion